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Genetics Questions about Designer Project **Parti Girls** (now defunct) (Chanties, Buckeyes, NHs, SS, Wyandotte, etc)

post #1 of 7
Thread Starter 

Long story short. Planned breeding project to make winterized (small combs and wattles), predator savvy, camouflaged, longevity, foraging, productive, every one different, etc.  I was not trying to make a breed that looked alike because I wanted to be able to tell them all apart so that I could stop banding.  Started 2009.  I counted eggs before picking the hens I chose to use as breeders.  I bred from hens that were 2 years old and laying through winter without heat or light, tough, free-ranging, smart hens, and good natured, alert cocks, etc., etc., etc. 

 

Purposely selected breeds:  White Chantecler (breeder), Buckeye (breeder), New Hampshire (Newcomer), Buff Wyandotte (breeder), Speckled Sussex (hatchery), Kraienkoeppe (refined, early hatchery), Golden Campine (crazy excellent winter layer, no lights & no heat--hatchery).

 

I called it my Parti Girls project. 

 

First cross with the White Chantecler and I got this:

I still have him!

Of course, I retain copyright on abov photo and any others I post. 2015 Copyright Spangled.

(Notice the white tip on the black tail feather!  Usually indicated mottling.)

 

I have had a few like him since, one was a deep mahogany in the red parts.  The first pairing was a pure White Chantecler with a Speckled Sussex and a New Hampshire (That's who was in the breeding pen.  3 chickens only.)  I don't know who the dam was--either a 2 year old NH or a 2 year old SS.  Of course, the White Chantecler are a composite breed, which could give me the mottling through the White Leghorn.  My batch of White Chanteclers had some weird stuff covered by the recessive white.  I got what appears to be B(sd), which is barring with sexual dilution.  So I get this odd gray barring; the black has been diluted.  I am also getting buff barring since I have mixed in Pheomelanin with the NH, Buckeyes, etc., so the red is also being diluted at times.   I belive that my White Chanteclers were E^R/eb or similar) and not E/E since from the first crossings I never once got a completely black bird, not once.

 

I also am getting what looks like mottling ... possibly hysterical because the mottling is splotchy many times.

 

I would like to think that I have a hetero dominant white (I/i) issue, but the genetics won't work like dominant white when I do the breedings.  Usually with dominant white, the red won't bleed through, on this level anyway, and usually it's in the pyle areas.  Also the percentages don't line up.

 

I'd like to think it's a Silver-Golden-Gold issue, but I am not sure that I can chalk all these colors up to that.  Is there anyone that could rule out Silver bleed-through by asking me some questions?  Or can you tell it's because Silver bleed-through just by looking at him?

 

Anyway, I also get some really pretty laced-looking hens that are white with gray lacing.  Would Silver allow for that???  The Pg from the Campines is showing up in this situation.  The pattern gene was a planned addition when I added the Golden Campines because I wanted all the chickens to look different and be camouflaged, but the gray/blue is a surprise. 

 

I do not know how I am getting gray unless it's from the B(sd).  How am I getting gray?  Would I/i allow a blue lacing-style feather pattern to come through?  I'm thinking it can't, so I am confused.

 

There is no splash involved.  I never get a completely black bird nor do I ever get a completely (or mostly) blue bird.  Never.  The genetics are not possible for that evenuality.  Besides BBS doesn't allow for red.

 

Anyway, if anyone around Montana or Wyoming wants to come and get some of these birds right away to continue on this project, please IM me.  I am sad that I have spent so much time on this project and now have to let it go.  I would love to see it continue on.  I've got quite a few to choose from.  I'd like to find a home for them. Yes, free, if you're serious about breeding them and maybe giving me back a few in a couple of years to get restarted if I get back into chickens. :);)

 

Photo below is of same cock as above.  Hatched in 2011.

 

 

 

Photo below is a pullet.

 

 

The following photo is probably a pullet because the cockerels are usually white until around 3 - 4 months when they develop little bits of red and black feathers.

   

 

 

Why are there black and blue feathers on hen below???

Splotchy at hatch.  The ones like this seem to retain their splotchiness into adulthood.  They are white with gold splotches on head, neck, chest, wings, with tails that are a little black and/or blue in the white -- as the previous hen.

 

The black/blue and gold barring.

 

 

Educated thoughts???


Edited by Spangled - 7/10/15 at 12:35pm

It's hard to explain puns to kleptomaniacs because they always take things literally.

 

I laugh in the face of "Recommended Serving Size."  The bag is too big to eat just 14 corn chips.

 

A little bit of summer's what the whole year's all about.  ~John Mayer

Reply

It's hard to explain puns to kleptomaniacs because they always take things literally.

 

I laugh in the face of "Recommended Serving Size."  The bag is too big to eat just 14 corn chips.

 

A little bit of summer's what the whole year's all about.  ~John Mayer

Reply
post #2 of 7

Amazing! I love it! They are so cool and pretty! I always wanted to create a great foraging, healthy, long-living breed! :thumbsup

 

Ocean, a cross-breed

 

A barred Rock and EE mix hen (we are going to get rid of the rooster that is over-breeding her)

 

A barred rock mix

 

One of my Dalmatian bantams, named Susie. Part Silkie, part OEG bantam and part Sebright

 

One of the chicks seen under Susie below

 

 

Best of luck finding some one to continue your awesome project!

post #3 of 7

E/E without anything else is not a totally black chicken, well maybe the hens. This doesn't have to do with the degree of dominance, but has to do with additional melanizers needed being absent or incomplete.

post #4 of 7
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Henk69 View Post
 

E/E without anything else is not a totally black chicken, well maybe the hens. This doesn't have to do with the degree of dominance, but has to do with additional melanizers needed being absent or incomplete.

 

Thank you.  So the White Chanteclers were crossed with e+ (possibly), e^b, e^Wh only during the first year and I did not end up with any chickens with enough (or complete enough) melanizers to produce a black chicken. I think that's what I think you're indicating. (?)  A few of the chicks hatched from that group were dark-ish mossy and mottled on the body, wings, tail, with white and gray streaked head and hackles.  Since very few people believe that White Chanteclers are E/E based, I was guessing from the lack of black chicks that my two breeding cocks were either E^R/E^R or hetero E^R, since White Chanteclers have a lot of White Wyandotte in them, which I believe is e^b.

 

The few I had of those were crossed with e^Wh and e^b red cocks and buff cocks as well as the white w/red and black feathered cock seen above and his father which was an excellent White Chantecler specimen.  I included the previous comment about black chickens as a way to let anyone trying to figure out my puzzle what are the possibilities for the E locus in this batch of birds.  I didn't want this flock of chickens to be E/E or E^R/E^R; anything else is fine with me.  My main idea was to not have black chickens because I can't tell them apart.  But now it sounds like, based on your above comment, I can have E/? (hetero) chickens that are red because it's all just a matter of missing and/or incomplete melanizers.  So that's interesting.

 

This spring I hatched about 40 in one batch.  Sire: Above (white with red and black feathers) and the dams were all reddish/buff. Not one hatched black.  They were all white-ish, yellow, blotchy, with a couple of chipmunks.  Now I'm confused because somewhere along the line I picked up that if there weren't any black chicks (or with brownish cast on the head), then you didn't have any extended black or birchen chicks.  So.  Hmmm.  But now I've just learned that it's a matter of missing or incomplete melanizers.  So I guess that could mean that a chipmunk chick may be E/E, but without all the melanizers necessary to make it appear black.  Is that really what you're saying?  I know a white/yellow chick can be E/E.  I guess my blotchy gold chicks could be E/E, also based on missing or incompelte melanizers, too.  The golden blotchy chicks (as seen above) grow up white background, with gold and gray or black blotches.

 

Are you thinking that this is Andalusian Blue?  With the red (pheomelanin) showing?  So, is Andalusian Blue a possibility if I've never hatched even one gray chicken?  I don't get any blue/gray on the roosters that are red (like a New Hampshire, with black wings, hackle, tail feathers), nor do I get any blue/gray on any of the buff and red mottled chickens.  The blue/gray only shows up on the chickens that are white based.  And many times there are also red feathers on the same white bird that has blue/gray splotches.  I have hatched and grown out about 200 over the years.  Some of the birds are only black and red on a white background without any gray at all.  If it were BBS (Blue Andalusian), wouldn't I have gotten at least one blue chicken?  There is a lot I don't understand about BBS (Blue Andalusian) because it never occured to methat it could be a possibility since I don't get solid black chickens or solid blue chickens, nor are the black feathers on the red chickens diluted to blue. 

 

I got a pretty buff barred chick to hatch this spring; the father was a red cross and then hen was one of my white background with blue and red splotchiness.  Because B(sd) could produce something like that (where black is diluted to blue/gray and red is diluted to buff), that's why I think that the blue/gray feathers are actually from B(sd), which has been reported by another person who has done crossing with White Chanteclers.

 

I've got one cockeral this year that has one gray barred tail feather along with some red and some black feathers on the white background.  He's looks great!

 

Do you have an idea what has caused this coloring in this photo below?  He has not one speck of blue on him.  The photo gets large when it is clicked on.

 

And this hen seen below has gold/red on her also.  Do you think this is BBS (Blue Andalusian) on a e^Wh or e^b base???  If so, wow! And why don't they ever hatch any blue chicks?  Is it because my chickens don't have any blue or black chickens for me to cross these splash chickens with?  If I cross a white based cock to a few white based hens, I will get about 80% white based chicks (with black and red/buff splotches at hatch or later, some are "Columbian" looking) and then also about 15% solid golden/red chicks with or without mottling and about 5% pure white, which I think is residual recessive white that I haven't fully bred out.  But the key here is that if she is a BBS (Splash version) and so is the cock above, why don't I get the required 100% splash chicks when I breed them together?  Also, when I breed this "splash" to a New Hampshire, I don't get any blue chickens?  Is that because I don't have enough melanizers (or they are incomplete) as you mentioned above?  I don't get how BBS (Blue Andalusian) works on E/E when E/E doesn't have enough (or has incomplete) melanizers. I also don't get how Blue Andalusian works on chickens that are e^Wh or e^b.

 

Just another photo of another hen:

She's showing barring in the tail.  She's looking a bit like a diluted Fifty-Five Flowery(by Silverudd) (which GreenFire recently imported).  Maybe the mottling gene is adding to that lightening effect???

 

Anyway, this flock is a lot of fun to work with.  Lots of variations and I can tell every hen and cock apart without the need for banding!

 

http://greenfirefarms.com/new/  (scroll down for photo of Greenfire's 55 Flowery chickens)

http://greenfirefarms.com/auto-sexing-chicken-breeds/ (Greenfire's comments on auto-sexing of Fifty-Five Flowery chickens)

 

It is so puzzling to me what is causing this odd (to me) coloration/pattern.  I wish I could work with this flock longer to get it figured out.

It's hard to explain puns to kleptomaniacs because they always take things literally.

 

I laugh in the face of "Recommended Serving Size."  The bag is too big to eat just 14 corn chips.

 

A little bit of summer's what the whole year's all about.  ~John Mayer

Reply

It's hard to explain puns to kleptomaniacs because they always take things literally.

 

I laugh in the face of "Recommended Serving Size."  The bag is too big to eat just 14 corn chips.

 

A little bit of summer's what the whole year's all about.  ~John Mayer

Reply
post #5 of 7
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by GitaBooks View Post
 

One of my Dalmatian bantams, named Susie. Part Silkie, part OEG bantam and part Sebright

 

A Dalmatian.  Cool!

 

Ocean (the first pic you posted) ... great name. :)

It's hard to explain puns to kleptomaniacs because they always take things literally.

 

I laugh in the face of "Recommended Serving Size."  The bag is too big to eat just 14 corn chips.

 

A little bit of summer's what the whole year's all about.  ~John Mayer

Reply

It's hard to explain puns to kleptomaniacs because they always take things literally.

 

I laugh in the face of "Recommended Serving Size."  The bag is too big to eat just 14 corn chips.

 

A little bit of summer's what the whole year's all about.  ~John Mayer

Reply
post #6 of 7
Thread Starter 

Well, I ended up keeping some of the flock, so I'm back at this for now.  NOT DEFUNCT any longer.  The project is fully funct.  I guess funct means "functional" or similar.

 

And I still maintain that I don't see how there could be any BBS in my chickens.  The hatch results don't ever show any evidence of BBS.  And the breeds included in this designer cross aren't usually based on E/E.  I believe the gray is from the B^sd which I see consistent evidence of year after year or maybe the gray is from the effect of mottling.  I think the spotting is from some sort of odd (red/black) mottling that was in the Chanteclers, which are a composite breed often based on e^b.  I don't think it's "red splash" that used to be found in some strains of RIR because I get black feathers, too.

 

If anyone wants to join in on the project, lmk.  I'm still mulling this over.  I don't have any long-term plans.  Just day to day plodding.  Of course, you must be able to keep a couple of roosters and have a quality incubator, like a Brinsea or better, because hatching shipped eggs is so difficult.

 

They lay an egg that is in the upper level of medium with some larges.  I don't plan to work on egg-size any time soon since I'm happy with them laying whatever their genetics provide.  I'm more interested in them laying through cold weather and through the winter during their second year.  Egg color is usually light brown.

It's hard to explain puns to kleptomaniacs because they always take things literally.

 

I laugh in the face of "Recommended Serving Size."  The bag is too big to eat just 14 corn chips.

 

A little bit of summer's what the whole year's all about.  ~John Mayer

Reply

It's hard to explain puns to kleptomaniacs because they always take things literally.

 

I laugh in the face of "Recommended Serving Size."  The bag is too big to eat just 14 corn chips.

 

A little bit of summer's what the whole year's all about.  ~John Mayer

Reply
post #7 of 7

I'd love to give that breed a try. I can for the time being, but maybe in a year or two I could try creating some of my own. I just love how they look. :)

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