Don't think I'm doing deep litter method right. Advice?

Den in Penn said:

I would not count on any heat from that dry litter to keep the temperature up. It is more the insulation value that will help with the temperature.

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I beg to differ on this, I have run my hands through my deep litter in the winter months and it's clearly above ambient temps once you dig down a bit so it's obviously helping with the temp in the coop over and above it's insulation value... How much heat it's generating is certainly open to debate and will likely vary greatly depending on the individual setup...

This article is about deep litter for cows, not chickens, but if offers some insight on the heat generation, scroll down to Figure 1... They were measuring deep litter bed temps in the 75°F range at about 9" depth during ambient freezing temps, that is a lot of heat IMO...

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4283184/

I've been using mainly pine shavings in our coop for Deep Litter and it has worked very well as far as keeping down moisture is concerned. I have a 6 foot round bale of brome hay that I have added to the mix over the last two months trying to get a feel for how it was going to work in the coop over the winter months, and what I've found is no matter how much I turn it or the chooks keep it stirred up, I'm not seeing any drying in the hay litter. I removed a lot of damp bedding and reached in where I had left a thin (5 inch at the most) layer of cleaner pine chips with another 4 inches of grass and hmmmmm. Dry as a bone. So I dug out all the damp hay and spread it on the run for them to scratch around in for the time being and left it alone.

What do I do? continue to use a base bedding of pine shavings and just keep a think layer of hay over the shavings and stir regularly or discard the idea of using the brome over the winter months? The coop is well ventilated over the summer months and I'm working on eliminating drafts for the winter without decreasing ventilation too much but the last thing I need to promote is frost bite.

Den in Penn said:

OK lets not confuse a compost pile for a chicken coop. They serve two different purposes. A compost pile needs a higher moisture level to work well, a chicken coop needs a much lower moisture level or you will run into things like ammonia and frost bite. I don't think aart puts that water in her coop. When I think of deep litter I think of a dry mix. The chickens poops will break up in to a finer particle size and will become part of that mix. There will be much less "decomposition" going on in the dry coop as there would be in a wet pile. There is always some going on as the poop dries. That might account for that ammonia smell if your ventilation is not enough. I would not count on any heat from that dry litter to keep the temperature up. It is more the insulation value that will help with the temperature.

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I do not..... and edited my post to make that more clear.

I agree the moisture level needed to truly compost I wouldn't want in my coop in winter...but I also have a wooden floor covered in vinyl.

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I can tell you that I've had vastly different experiences with DL. My first coop is a cattle panel hoop, over all dimensions are approx. 8 x 8, with 6' center height. The back 4' has a loft that is raised up 2' from the bottom of the panels. So, there is a lower level that sits on the ground that is 8 x 8, while the upper 4 x 8 is conventional floor. I had incredible DL in the lower level. Every thing I put in there (mostly dried leaves and grass clippings) literally melted into the soil. Never any odor. When the shavings in the upper level needed to be cleaned out, I just tossed them into the lower level. I never was able to get any kind of DL composting action going in the upper level. Now, my new coop is traditional framing with plywood floor overlaid with sheet vinyl. Last winter, I tried to DL, and even added leaves, compost and soil from my garden to the traditional shavings. Even with the DL built up 12" there never was any composting action, and there was some ammonia smell. So, I had to wait till things thawed out enough to do a partial clean out mid winter. I've built litter up over the summer, in a second attempt to get this going. No ammonia smell. But, it does smell "barny" The litter is about 12" under the roosts. I'm faced with giving it a good flip, perhaps removing some of it, adding some grass clippings, compost, and dried leaves... and seeing what develops... OR, do a total fall clean out, and plan to be doing traditional shavings/clean outs through the winter. I would LOVE to be able to have DL work through the winter. But, hate the idea of going into the winter with a coop full of poo if the DL is not going to work!!

So today I cleaned out the coop of all the litter. I added a 3 inch layer of soil from our garden mixed with some good compost full of earth worms and other insects in with it then covered with a half inch of pine shavings.

Hopefully this works out better

Please keep us informed! DL is under-utilized and misunderstood IMO. Still working on both aspects of that myself.

Soldier415 said:

So today I cleaned out the coop of all the litter. I added a 3 inch layer of soil from our garden mixed with some good compost full of earth worms and other insects in with it then covered with a half inch of pine shavings.

Hopefully this works out better

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I think you'll find that will help a lot but keep in mind that there has to be a minimum amount of moisture for the worms, bugs, etc. to survive. In a dirt floor coop, that moisture comes up from the soil. You will get some moisture from the birds via droppings and respiration but - depending on the size of your coop and the number of chickens - that may not be enough.

There's a very fine line you'll need to strive for where there's enough moisture to allow for decomposition and yet not so much as to generate mold or cause a problem with frostbite when the temps become frigid. Ventilation is key to avoid both.

I feel down into my deep litter often. When I notice an increase in dust from the litter or that my litter has become dry, I will add moisture to the litter from a spray bottle and that has worked for me. Not huge amounts, no puddles, but a fine mist into the litter to help moisten it a bit.

Best of luck and I hope this works for you.

EDIT TO ADD: Just saw where you added a half inch of pine shavings. You might want to increase your amount of pine shavings or add leaves. Deep litter needs to be just that = Deep. A half inch isn't going to absorb much and you'll soon be smelling ammonia from their droppings. I usually add at least 4 inches of litter at a time as it soon breaks down.

BeeKissed has been doing DL successfully for years. Her set up is hoop coop over dirt floor, perfect for DL management. She routinely adds moisture when the litter gets dry. She has a nice video. I'll invite her over here to chime in, and perhaps she'll bless us with her video.

Soldier415 said:

I use pine shavings for the litter, and it is completely dry. I turn it every few days with a pitchfork and add scratch grains to it so the girls keep it stirred up very well

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Pine shavings take tons of nitrogen to decompose...

Different types of compounds decompose at different rates. This is dependent on their [URL='https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chemical_structure']chemical structure[/URL]. For instance said:

OK lets not confuse a compost pile for a chicken coop. They serve two different purposes. A compost pile needs a higher moisture level to work well, a chicken coop needs a much lower moisture level or you will run into things like ammonia and frost bite. I don't think aart puts that water in her coop. When I think of deep litter I think of a dry mix. The chickens poops will break up in to a finer particle size and will become part of that mix. There will be much less "decomposition" going on in the dry coop as there would be in a wet pile. There is always some going on as the poop dries. That might account for that ammonia smell if your ventilation is not enough. I would not count on any heat from that dry litter to keep the temperature up. It is more the insulation value that will help with the temperature.

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I'd beg to differ. Ventilation is key to composting in a chicken coop and, with correct ventilation and air flow in the coop, not only is frost bite prevented but the warmth at roost level is as much as 10* warmer than the outside air...and that's with all the ventilation open. A composting deep litter, when built deeply enough and with moisture trapped into the bottom levels, will continue to decompose and generate heat all winter long...even in temps below zero.

lazy gardener said:

BeeKissed has been doing DL successfully for years. Her set up is hoop coop over dirt floor, perfect for DL management. She routinely adds moisture when the litter gets dry. She has a nice video. I'll invite her over here to chime in, and perhaps she'll bless us with her video.

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Here's that vid. This was filmed in the winter with snow on the ground. My thermometer continually measured a 10 degree difference at roost level both day and night than the outside temps...and this is in a hoop coop covered with a tarp. No insulating in this building whatsoever and with enormous cracks, windows and spaces open to the air.



For many others who are currently doing DL in their coops, with successful decomposition of the materials therein, you might try reading in these two threads....keep in mind that the information improves the farther you delve into the threads due to the learning going on as time lapses and people experiment more and more with materials and methods of managing the composting of the litter:

https://www.backyardchickens.com/t/70/deep-litter-method

https://www.backyardchickens.com/t/643302/results-from-first-year-with-deep-litter-method

For the OP, my advice would be to remove your wood shavings, place some good, active soil in the bottom of your coop and proceed with using materials with different levels of decomposition....leaves, dry grasses, twigs, pine needles and cones, a little sawdust to retain moisture in the bottom level, weedy trimmings from the yard, bark, hair, etc. Stop stirring it. Lightly flip dry bedding over the manure under the roosts or just flip the manure~ and the bedding directly under it~ over. Add moisture into the bedding when need be by just dumping your old water in the coop floor when you refill/clean your waterer. My coop is intentionally leaky so that any time it rains or snow melts, I get moisture added right where I want it. I can also open windows to allow rain to come in to the litter under the roosts when I so wish...all of that is incredibly valuable for my composting DL.

By using materials of different size and nature, you create air spaces in your litter to aid in decomposition. By leaving the material alone and building it at least 6-10 in. deep, you retain that moisture in the bottom layers. By flipping your manure under the top layer of bedding, you encourage the bugs/worms living in the bottom layers to consume/disperse the manure into the carbonaceous materials and the moisture below, where the nitrogen content can bind with the carbon and the microbial life supported in that layer can speed decomposition. Open up ventilation that is adjustable at all levels of the coop, but particularly at the bottom and top, so that fresh air that is taken in below can move upwards through the coop, removing the moisture and warmth of the composting materials upwards and out at the roof level. That warm air moving upwards warms the birds as it goes by and also removes the moisture the birds themselves generate as they are roosting close together. All that results in birds that stay warm...and dry...with fresh, warmed air moving past them all winter long.

Pics of decomposing DL...has no smell except of earth, no flies, provides food for the chickens and healthy footing underneath as it holds healthy bacteria/yeast/molds that outnumber and consume any harmful pathogens and molds.

Mtn Laurel said:

EDIT TO ADD: Just saw where you added a half inch of pine shavings. You might want to increase your amount of pine shavings or add leaves. Deep litter needs to be just that = Deep. A half inch isn't going to absorb much and you'll soon be smelling ammonia from their droppings. I usually add at least 4 inches of litter at a time as it soon breaks down.

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Was just coming here to ask how deep it should be as the chickens have already mixed those shavings into the soil. Will add a few more inches today.