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Worm in Egg or something else??? - Page 2

post #11 of 17
Thread Starter 

Ahhh!  Thank you ALL for your time to answer my post.  The description of the oviduct material fit exactly what my husband saw when he found this in the egg.  I knew it wasn't a roundworm, but besides that, I have never encountered something like that that was that big.

 

Loved all the precise info on the various wormers.  Good info and I will be sure to print some of that out and put it in my binder.  I couldn't find any info on Google on what the "worm" might be, but now that I know what to look for  (oviduct tissue), I should be able to find some extra info to confirm that, although now I am confident that's what we're dealing with.

 

Thanks again!!

post #12 of 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by casportpony View Post


Studies show that ivermectin is not an effective poultry wormer unless high doses are given. There are also many posts here on BYC with necropsy pictures from people who thought it was an effective wormer......


Wazine, Safeguard, Valbazen are not FDA approved for laying hens, they aren't banned for use, so all can be used as long as one waits until the drugs clear.

-Kathy

 

@casportpony

I agree that Ivermectin results are mixed depending upon the study and source you read. Ivermectin efficacy depends upon the parasite type. It is effective on some, while not as effective or ineffective on others. In red roost mite, for example, treatment must be at toxicity level for even a short term benefit. 

 

But as you can see below from the Merck's manual, it is deemed effective on a number of parasites.

Note red roost mites would have to be treated at point of toxicity for short benefit while other types are successfully treated at acceptable doses)

http://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/poultry/ectoparasites/mites_of_poultry.html?qt=ivermectin&alt=sh

 

 

For internal parasites, I find

http://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/poultry/helminthiasis/overview_of_helminthiasis_in_poultry.html?qt=overview%20of%20helminthiasis%20in%20poultry&alt=sh

 "and ivermectin 1% at 10 mg/mL in water were effective in removing A galliH gallinarum, and Capillariain chickens  (Round worms, cecal, and capillary)"

 

The problem with Ivermectin has been over use and appropriate use (correct application and applied correct number of times). Any wormer's effectiveness will vary with both application type and overuse. It is best to rotate wormers and insecticides to avoid resistance build up to the particular medicine. And that can be the reason behind such mixed reports on many of the meds. It may depend on the local resistance of the parasites.

 

Unfortunately, the government has made rotation of meds difficult as only Hygromycin B is currently approved for worming, and Permethrin (or variations) for dusting or spray, of the types commonly used in back yard situations. (There is a longer list for external parasites which typically are used by poultry industry rather than the back yarder, but Hygromycin is the only currently approved poultry wormer for hens laying eggs for human consumption).

 

Only FDA approved drugs are allowed for use. That's not banned, that is approved only. Many drug manufacturers have let their FDA approval lapse because it takes time and money to keep up with the certification process and the poultry industry does not find it profitable to do so. It keeps industry sanitation with cages, rotation and culling. Sevin is such example of a drug that used to be approved for poultry but which the drug manufacturer itself no longer sought to keep FDA approved. Sevin is still sold for garden plants, but is no longer approved for poulty.

 

It is important to understand that, legally, the FDA only allows drugs that have been approved, which means Wazine, Fenbedazole, and even Ivermectin are not approved for hens laying eggs for human consumption and therefore technically should never be used for that purpose.

 

On the other hand, the government expects and requires all animals to be treated and cared for humanely and medically if necessary. What that means is that you may have to treat an animal under vet supervision but lose your organic status for that animal and ability to sell food products from that animal ever again, even with appropriate pull times.

 

This is targeted at commercial and certified organic growers. Many of us sell through a Farm Direct to Consumer provision that allows us to sell eggs without government licensing or inspection. So essentially there is no oversight. With no oversight, then technically you can do what you want as there is no "egg police." What it could mean (this being spoken from my experience as an ex-paralegal) is that if someone ate your eggs and got sick and sued you, and it came out that you used non FDA approved products on your birds, you could have a greater legal battle on your hands. It is a bit of "no man's land" with a lot of "don't ask, don't tell."

 

My customers don't care (including the vets at my daughter's vet clinic) as long as I practice appropriate pull dates as supported by authoritative research and documentation. They simply want eggs from happy, healthy hens, farm fresh.

 

A number of people do care, and my daughter who is now an organic farmer with her husband, must follow strict guidelines to keep their eggs appropriately certified which essentially means herbal wormers only, culling any sick animal.

 

My understanding as I have had to wade through these legal "technical' questions for myself.

 

LofMc

 

edited for grammar typos


Edited by Lady of McCamley - 11/8/15 at 1:38pm
Keeper of 15+ layers, common to specialty types for colorful egg baskets. Brooding Queens: The Queen Mum Silkie and 2 Bantam Cochin handmaids. Preparing to breed my own Olive Eggers! Barnevelder roo with Splash Marans and CL for egg color and color coding :D Former 4H leader, GDB Puppy Raiser, Homeschooler. Current ESL tutor. Proud new grandma. Loving wife to a very tolerant husband.
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Keeper of 15+ layers, common to specialty types for colorful egg baskets. Brooding Queens: The Queen Mum Silkie and 2 Bantam Cochin handmaids. Preparing to breed my own Olive Eggers! Barnevelder roo with Splash Marans and CL for egg color and color coding :D Former 4H leader, GDB Puppy Raiser, Homeschooler. Current ESL tutor. Proud new grandma. Loving wife to a very tolerant husband.
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post #13 of 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lady of McCamley View Post
 
.........................................snip.......................................

For internal parasites, I find

http://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/poultry/helminthiasis/overview_of_helminthiasis_in_poultry.html?qt=overview%20of%20helminthiasis%20in%20poultry&alt=sh

 "and ivermectin 1% at 10 mg/mL in water were effective in removing A galliH gallinarum, and Capillariain chickens  (Round worms, cecal, and capillary)"

 

.........................................snip.......................................

Place 10ml amount of your ivermectin in a glass of water, stir well and wait... I bet it will do like mine did and float to the top. Not sure where Merck got their info from, but the 1% ivermectin I tested floats on water.

 

-Kathy

post #14 of 17

Ivermectin Studies:

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2816174

Ivermectin as a bird anthelmintic--trials with naturally infected domestic fowl.

Abstract

To evaluate the use of ivermectin as a bird anthelmintic, 29 White Leghorn hens naturally infected with Ascaridia spp., Heterakis spp. and Capillaria spp. were treated with 0.2, 2 or 6 mg/kg intramuscularly or 0.2 or 0.8 mg/kg orally. Faecal samples were collected before treatment and at autopsy, 2, 6, or 16 days after treatment, when the intestines were also examined for helminths. None of the treatments gave satisfactory anthelmintic results.

 


 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9269125

Anthelmintic efficacy of ivermectin against Syngamus trachea and Capillaria spp. in pheasant.

Abstract

Ivermectin (IVM) was perorally administered in dosage schemes 1 x 0.8 mg/kg of body weight (b.w.), 1 x 1.6 mg/kg h.w., 3 x 0.8 mg/kg b.w., and 3 x 1.6 mg/kg b.w. to pheasants infected by Syngamus trachea and Capillaria spp. The samples of faeces were coprologically examined. The clinical state of pheasant was controlled. In all of the used therapeutical schemes the helminthostatic or partially helminthocide effect against adults of worms was reached. The clinical signs of helmithoses were reduced only. IVM in tested doses is not possible to recommend as an effective drug of pheasant syngamosis and capillariosis.

 
-Kathy
post #15 of 17
post #16 of 17

Yes, I totally agree you can find studies against Ivermectin. I just know, as I sought solution for external parasite explosion, you can also find studies for Ivermectin, as well.

 

I am keenly aware (having owned a Sheltie for years), that Ivermectin can be very problematic in some animals. I have not experienced that with my birds, but I do give caution about using it because of those concerns. 

 

I simply believe it is one tool to consider among many. And that for the right situation, is can be very beneficial.

 

My personal preference is to use Ivermectin topical cattle pour on for external parasites, which it does a bang up job with if you get behind a population explosion. I believe in order to put in the water, as the Merck manual suggested, you would need to purchase an oral solution rather than a pour on or drop on solution as the drug itself is hydrophobic (non soluable).

 

While I prefer Hygromycin B for internal parasites, as I prefer to remain FDA approved if at all possible, unless a non-label drug is medically indicated for health of the bird (as in terrible external parasite explosion), I do know Ivermectin can be effective against internal parasites given correctly where no resistance is in the current worm population.

 

Not to start an evidence war here, as I totally agree there is evidence on both sides about Ivermectin...but imho it is not an easy one size answer fits all as the evidence is conflicting.

 

Again, I think due to the overuse, misuse, and misapplication of Ivermectin (it is extremely light sensitive so light exposure will render the drug ineffective...proper storage is crucial).

 

Here's my evidence (along with the veterinary practice of trusting Ivermectin in appropriate circumstances).

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2267731 (90 to 95% effective against round worms in chickens)

 

http://www.aensiweb.com/old/aeb/2011/2002-2005.pdf (Ivermectin pour on 98% effective against round worm in chickens, in 3 consecutive treatments)

 

Here is one that is less favorable to Ivermectin...Wazine (piperazine) showed to be more effective in poultry against Ivermectin and Albendazole (which is amazing...I think due to drug resistance)

http://www.academia.edu/17096295/Comparative_Therapeutic_Efficacy_of_Ivermectin_and_Piperazine_Citrate_against_Ascaridia_galli_in_Commercial_and_Rural_Poultry

 

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1365-2885.1984.tb00872.x/abstract (This is older, but supported by Merck Labs, so part of the history with Merck support, unfortunately you have to purchase the full article or rent to read)

 

Another veterinary manual showing it as a broad spectrum wormer for chickens https://books.google.com/books?id=h4zCAgAAQBAJ&pg=PA231&lpg=PA231&dq=ivermectin+effective+against+anthelmintics+chickens&source=bl&ots=frHmaM_j6B&sig=CwxbJqj7h_L0Za735CUwOfhmF6M&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CFMQ6AEwCTgKahUKEwivxf2GronJAhWBwiYKHWQXAdg#v=onepage&q=ivermectin%20effective%20against%20anthelmintics%20chickens&f=false

 

And I have more, but really the point is that we agree there is ample evidence on both sides.

 

Ivermectin definitely has conflicting results, so I guess the bottomline is be informed and choose the drug that best fits your situation and results knowing that rotation is the absolute best strategy against parasites to avoid building a population with drug resistance.

 

I personally have experienced benefit with Ivermectin in my birds with no ill effect.

 

LofMc


Edited by Lady of McCamley - 11/11/15 at 10:00pm
Keeper of 15+ layers, common to specialty types for colorful egg baskets. Brooding Queens: The Queen Mum Silkie and 2 Bantam Cochin handmaids. Preparing to breed my own Olive Eggers! Barnevelder roo with Splash Marans and CL for egg color and color coding :D Former 4H leader, GDB Puppy Raiser, Homeschooler. Current ESL tutor. Proud new grandma. Loving wife to a very tolerant husband.
Reply
Keeper of 15+ layers, common to specialty types for colorful egg baskets. Brooding Queens: The Queen Mum Silkie and 2 Bantam Cochin handmaids. Preparing to breed my own Olive Eggers! Barnevelder roo with Splash Marans and CL for egg color and color coding :D Former 4H leader, GDB Puppy Raiser, Homeschooler. Current ESL tutor. Proud new grandma. Loving wife to a very tolerant husband.
Reply
post #17 of 17

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