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mowin said:
We're going to have to agree to disagree. Impossible to cure with just salt. Period.
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That would come to a shock to those who have been doing it for a long, long time. In fact, by regulation, nitrates/nitrites are not allowed as cure ingredients when making things like Parma ham, Prosciutto, Serrano ham, et al, which are most definitely cured meat products.

Nitrites/nitrates are most commonly added to cure mixtures in modern times as an added safety measure, in addition to the other benefits provided...but they are jot essential elements of curing at its most basic.
 
DParker75089 said:
That would come to a shock to those who have been doing it for a long, long time. In fact, by regulation, nitrates/nitrites are not allowed as cure ingredients when making things like Parma ham, Prosciutto, Serrano ham, et al, which are most definitely cured meat products.

Nitrites/nitrates are most commonly added to cure mixtures in modern times as an added safety measure, in addition to the other benefits provided...but they are jot essential elements of curing at its most basic.
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Yes, a long long time ago before nitrates were know and used. But again, salt alone will not and cannot cure meats. If you choose to believe it does, that's on you.

BTW, your bacon looks good. What's your process? I'm picking up 60lbs of bellies next week. I dry cure my bacon, and cold smoke. I've also got 15lbs of venison roasts in a 14 day brine cure to make vastrami.
 
mowin said:
Yes, a long long time ago before nitrates were know and used.
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So you're claiming that curing suddenly stopped being curing when nitrates/nitrites were discovered? Also, are you claiming that charcuterie products like Parma and Serrano hams that are made today (not a long long time ago) are not cured meats?

mowin said:
But again, salt alone will not and cannot cure meats. If you choose to believe it does, that's on you.
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What I, you or anyone else chooses to believe (or not believe) is irrelevant. The fact is that the idea and practice of curing meats predates the discovery of nitrates/nitrites by millenia. The fact that they became commonly (but not always) added to the process at some point did not alter the fundamental meaning of "cured".
mowin said:
BTW, your bacon looks good. What's your process? I'm picking up 60lbs of bellies next week. I dry cure my bacon, and cold smoke. I've also got 15lbs of venison roasts in a 14 day brine cure to make vastrami.
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Same here. I use dry curing for both my bacon and my beef brisket pastrami. Where we likely diverge is when I sous vide my brisket post-cure at 155°F for 36 hours before smoking it.
 
DParker75089 said:
So you're claiming that curing suddenly stopped being curing when nitrates/nitrites were discovered? Also, are you claiming that charcuterie products like Parma and Serrano hams that are made today (not a long long time ago) are not cured meats?


What I, you or anyone else chooses to believe (or not believe) is irrelevant. The fact is that the idea and practice of curing meats predates the discovery of nitrates/nitrites by millenia. The fact that they became commonly (but not always) added to the process at some point did not alter the fundamental meaning of "cured".

Same here. I use dry curing for both my bacon and my beef brisket pastrami. Where we likely diverge is when I sous vide my brisket post-cure at 155°F for 36 hours before smoking it.
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Last time I'll say it. Cannot use salt alone to cure meats safely.

Now onto the brisket...
I've never tried the SV post cure method. I love my vastrami, but I'm not a huge fan of beef pastrami. Brisket low and slow on the pit is my cup of tea. Absolutely love the burnt ends. Usually cook 10-15 packers every year.
I'd try SV with my venison, but I only smoke my vastrami to 120°, then steam to 135°.

After you SV at 155°, what temp do you smoke it to? Do you need to take it to the higher temps to it break down to be tender, or did the SV at 36hrs accomplish that?
 
mowin said:
Last time I'll say it. Cannot use salt alone to cure meats safely.
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Simply repeating a claim ad nauseum while providing no support for the claim...and repeatedly ignoring all of the substantial evidence to the contrary...is a pretty good indication that your position lacks merit. "Because I say so" isn't a compelling argument
mowin said:
After you SV at 155°, what temp do you smoke it to? Do you need to take it to the higher temps to it break down to be tender, or did the SV at 36hrs accomplish that?
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One of the benefits of SV is that you can acheive the same (or even greater) levels of tenderization at lower temperatures via the longer cooking time, and without danger of drying the protein. Once the SV step is complete the meat is already thoroughly cooked and tenderize, so there is no need to take it to a higher temperature in the smoker. In fact that is to be avoided, as exceeding the SV temp in the smoker risks drying the meat, so it is common practice to subject the meat to an ice bath prior to smoking so as to allow for a longer time in the smoke before the meat is back up to the SV temp. The other benefit is reliability and schedule control. With SV I can plan my cook time with complete precision. There is no stall and no uncertainty regarding when the meat will be done.
 
DParker75089 said:
Simply repeating a claim ad nauseum while providing no support for the claim...and repeatedly ignoring all of the substantial evidence to the contrary...is a pretty good indication that your position lacks merit. "Because I say so" isn't a compelling argument

One of the benefits of SV is that you can acheive the same (or even greater) levels of tenderization at lower temperatures via the longer cooking time, and without danger of drying the protein. Once the SV step is complete the meat is already thoroughly cooked and tenderize, so there is no need to take it to a higher temperature in the smoker. In fact that is to be avoided, as exceeding the SV temp in the smoker risks drying the meat, so it is common practice to subject the meat to an ice bath prior to smoking so as to allow for a longer time in the smoke before the meat is back up to the SV temp. The other benefit is reliability and schedule control. With SV I can plan my cook time with complete precision. There is no stall and no uncertainty regarding when the meat will be done.
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I could post link after link supporting my claim as you probably could have done to, but didn't.

I do like the precision aspect. Although I usually cook my briskets so they will have 5 hrs or so rest time foiled, wrapped in towels and resting in a cooler. Gives me plenty of time if the cook goes a little longer than expected.

Ice bath makes sense as I figured the SV did what the higher temps in the smoker accomplished.
Have you tried cold smoking after the SV process? If so how did that compare to smoking to the set SV temps?
What size briskets are you normally cooking? Often though about SV one of my 18lb packers in a cooler, but wouldn't know how long a hunk that size would need.
 
mowin said:
I could post link after link supporting my claim as you probably could have done to, but didn't.
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Let's not pretend that there is any equivaence in the level of support we've provided. Among other things, I cited multiple examples of cured meats that do not involve the use of nitrites or nitrates. You simply ignored them, even when directly asked about them multiple times. As I said, that's a very good indication of the problems with your claim.
mowin said:
Have you tried cold smoking after the SV process?
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No. Chilling the meat allows for plenty of time in the smoker already and the meat is already cooked, so there's nothing I'd be trying to accomplish with cold smoking at that point.
mowin said:
What size briskets are you normally cooking? Often though about SV one of my 18lb packers in a cooler, but wouldn't know how long a hunk that size would need.
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I've SVed whole packers...both for pastrami and just for BBQ...ranging from 12 to 18 lbs. The interior of the meat reaches the target temperature within a couple of hours, even for the larger packers, and since your total cook time is anywhere from 36-72 hours any variability in reaching target temp internally can be safely ignored.

Yes, that's right...cooks as long as 72 hours. Another advantage of SV is that with the ability to cook for extremely long times without danger of drying/overcooking the meat you can cook a brisket to a medium-rare doneness (~132°F-135°F or so) and have it turn out fork-tender. One of the favorite uses of this principle is to cook a chuck roast for 24 hours at something like 132°F, with the result being surprisingly similar to prime rib. That's something you can't achieve with any other cooking method.
 
DParker75089 said:
Let's not pretend that there is any equivaence in the level of support we've provided. Among other things, I cited multiple examples of cured meats that do not involve the use of nitrites or nitrates. You simply ignored them, even when directly asked about them multiple times. As I said, that's a very good indication of the problems with your claim.

No. Chilling the meat allows for plenty of time in the smoker already and the meat is already cooked, so there's nothing I'd be trying to accomplish with cold smoking at that point.

I've SVed whole packers...both for pastrami and just for BBQ...ranging from 12 to 18 lbs. The interior of the meat reaches the target temperature within a couple of hours, even for the larger packers, and since your total cook time is anywhere from 36-72 hours any variability in reaching target temp internally can be safely ignored.

Yes, that's right...cooks as long as 72 hours. Another advantage of SV is that with the ability to cook for extremely long times without danger of drying/overcooking the meat you can cook a brisket to a medium-rare doneness (~132°F-135°F or so) and have it turn out fork-tender. One of the favorite uses of this principle is to cook a chuck roast for 24 hours at something like 132°F, with the result being surprisingly similar to prime rib. That's something you can't achieve with any other cooking method.
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Those meats are not cured.. salts are used to dry and age the meats but they are not cured. This method helps preserve the meat, but it's not cured. Don't confuse preserve and cure. Two totally different methods.

I've done smaller cuts with the SV. Always come out fantastic. I'll get the nervous up to try a bigger more expensive cut at some point.
 
mowin said:
Those meats are not cured.. salts are used to dry and age the meats but they are not cured. This method helps preserve the meat, but it's not cured. Don't confuse preserve and cure. Two totally different methods.
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I'm not confusing anything. Curing is a preservation technique that, at its most basic, involves significant dehydration using salt as a way of creating an environment that is inhospitable to spoilage organisms. "Cure" is a subset of "preserve", not a "totally different" thing. That's like saying that "chair" is a totally different thing from "furniture". While other techniques and additives are often...even usually in modern times...combined with salt curing in order to achieve additional benefits in safety, flavor, color and/or texture curing is, at its most fundamental, a salt-based preservation method.

Both Parma, Serrano and other similarly made salt-cured hams involve no use of nitrites/nitrates, and are in fact "cured" meats. Ditto things like salt cod, Gravlax ( salmon cured using salt, sugar and herbs), etc. All cured meats with no nitrates/nitrites involved.

https://www.prosciuttodiparma.com/en/making-parma-ham/
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curing_(food_preservation)

There are many, many more references to be found on the history, traditions and chemistry of the food preservation techniques collectively known as "curing".
 
So now I have 10 lbs of home-cured and smoked bacon, all these chopped aromatics, a lb of dried split peas and it's a cold winter day that just begs for a pot of soup. What to do, what to do....
20220102_173211.jpg
 

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