Recessives and Throwbacks

Having a bit of a brain melt at the moment.

Lavender is doing my head in.

I had a pullet hatch end of last season, who i originally thought was lavender, she had a full sister who was def lav, however the other pullet was very light in colour, very even all over, did not have the frayed feathers her lav sister had even from an early age, and the shaft on every single feather is dark, her lav sister's feather shafts were very pale/lavender.
The hen was a black split for lav, and sire a blue cock who it turns out was also split for lav.



Here is a very bad pic, (but only one i could find) that shows the pale girl and her lav sister side by side, to note the difference in colour/shade. (pale pullet is behind the very lavender one)



Now, is the pale pullet a lavander of some kind? I did wonder if she was blue based, but wouldn't her had be a few shades darker? Where as she is the same even, almost white (but not quite) tone over every inch or her, and i can't work out where the dark feather shafts come from, surely they should be diluted too like on a normal lav?

Does anyone have any ideas what's going on in this girl?



And also just to complicate things further, i did a test hatch between miss Pale and my lavender cock. Have another setting of eggs due in about 5-6 days, but i had 5/7 hatch from the first setting, and i got 2 lavs, 2 pale white/yellow things, that could be more pales like mum, and a wildtype. (chipmunk racing stripes) in shades of brown and gold.








Is there anyone out there that knows what the heck is going on, and can help my poor melting brain?

TwistedFeathers said:

Having a bit of a brain melt at the moment.

Lavender is doing my head in.

I had a pullet hatch end of last season, who i originally thought was lavender, she had a full sister who was def lav, however the other pullet was very light in colour, very even all over, did not have the frayed feathers her lav sister had even from an early age, and the shaft on every single feather is dark, her lav sister's feather shafts were very pale/lavender.
The hen was a black split for lav, and sire a blue cock who it turns out was also split for lav.



Here is a very bad pic, (but only one i could find) that shows the pale girl and her lav sister side by side, to note the difference in colour/shade. (pale pullet is behind the very lavender one)



Now, is the pale pullet a lavander of some kind? I did wonder if she was blue based, but wouldn't her had be a few shades darker? Where as she is the same even, almost white (but not quite) tone over every inch or her, and i can't work out where the dark feather shafts come from, surely they should be diluted too like on a normal lav?

Does anyone have any ideas what's going on in this girl?



And also just to complicate things further, i did a test hatch between miss Pale and my lavender cock. Have another setting of eggs due in about 5-6 days, but i had 5/7 hatch from the first setting, and i got 2 lavs, 2 pale white/yellow things, that could be more pales like mum, and a wildtype. (chipmunk racing stripes) in shades of brown and gold.








Is there anyone out there that knows what the heck is going on, and can help my poor melting brain?

Click to expand...

Nope, can't help -- but can bump it up incase someone with expertise knows.

Taking a wild guess -- it has to do with the blue -- since most information that I see on lav and black in the mix....and diluters can be tricky and they are recessive. That said -- there is a diluter for cream - and one called champagne. Could some of the parentage have carried an additional dilute such as champagne?

Here's a paper on it -- and interestingly champagne blond gene is dominant. (so I guess if the ultra-light one you have had it one parent would also have been light)
http://forum.backyardpoultry.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=7987562&start=0

Probably it isn't anything at all wrong with your brain -- but instead you are dealing with some unknowns there. Hopefully someone good in genetics will chime in and contribute their view.

ETA your chickens are gorgeous BTW and the chicks in your incubator look really BIG and really fluffy and healthy. You are adding to my hatching fever.

Thanks

Hmmmm, if they did it would have to be a recessive, the cock was a dark blue with a little bit of red leakage, and the hen was black with quite a bit of silver leakage around her face.
I don't know the parentage of the lavender cock i put over my mystery pullet as i bought him in, but guessing he came from a lavender line, as have seen others for sale that look really similar to him that i am guessing are from the same line. At most there may be a black in there, but mainly lavs i think.
As to the blue, my understanding is that blue based lavs still show darker lav colouring where the darker blue shows in the sexlinked feathers, blue based lav cocks have darker shoulders, saddles ect, hens should theoretically have a darker head, as seen on a normal blue?
I also find it interesting that she doesn't have the ratty feathers that you see on lavs, so something seems to be cancelling out that part of the lavender, as her feathers are very neat and tight, except on her back after roosters lol

And thanks I'm very pleased with them, especially as the pullets eggs are still fairly small, they are a good size, i expected them to be a lot smaller. Lol i have more babies due early next week

Will also get better pics of the current chicks soon. Have transferred them to brooder box, and then will legband them before i put them under hen, as i have one that has hatched 2 chicks the same age as these wee guys

That is information I didn't know about blue in lav. Hoping to get some lavender-brown (Isabel) this spring and excited about that. oh hey, I just noticed you are in New Zealand..--so you are seeing summer coming to an end and we are looking forward to Spring.

One other thing I had heard about lav is that every now and then black should be introduced to the line to keep the color vibrant -- ever hear of that?

Yea, it's doing my head in lol. All the info i have dug up, and all the genetic rules say lav x lav should only produce lav. I don't even know what to call my mystery pullet haha

And yup, here in nz we are past the halfway point for summer It's very depressing haha i hate the end of summer.

Yes, have heard the black to lav thing, some breeders here are only breeding lavs, and some of them just breed lav to lav, but others will chuck a black in there. Unsure if it makes the colour deeper, but if you can get a pure black with no red (pretty much impossible in my breed here, they need so much work) it can clean up any brass, but a lot of the lavs here are brassy, due to there being no good blacks. Have also heard breeding in a black(split for lav) can help with the feather quality, stop them getting so ratty, as apparently if you keep breeding lav to lav the feathers can wind up really really bad. However i am not interested in breeding lav, had this girl pop up, and kept her cuz of her colour, as it's quite different.

I breed araucanas. Not the american araucana, ours follow the British tailed standard, and the aussies. Looks quite similar to the ameraucana, however not quite as heavy in the body, and our araucanas have a crest.
So many people have outcrossed them, due to there being such a tiny gene pool here, and it's just about impossible to import birds into the country, (unless you are insanely rich) that it's really hard to find good quality birds, and all the blacks and blues have red leakage, some really bad. Not helped that most of the 'breeders' here have no idea what they are doing. Can be very frustrating sometimes.

Have a couple of pics taken today of the 5 chicks that hatched from the above pullet, they are 3 days old.

TwistedFeathers said:

Yea, it's doing my head in lol. All the info i have dug up, and all the genetic rules say lav x lav should only produce lav. I don't even know what to call my mystery pullet haha

And yup, here in nz we are past the halfway point for summer It's very depressing haha i hate the end of summer.

Yes, have heard the black to lav thing, some breeders here are only breeding lavs, and some of them just breed lav to lav, but others will chuck a black in there. Unsure if it makes the colour deeper, but if you can get a pure black with no red (pretty much impossible in my breed here, they need so much work) it can clean up any brass, but a lot of the lavs here are brassy, due to there being no good blacks. Have also heard breeding in a black(split for lav) can help with the feather quality, stop them getting so ratty, as apparently if you keep breeding lav to lav the feathers can wind up really really bad. However i am not interested in breeding lav, had this girl pop up, and kept her cuz of her colour, as it's quite different.

I breed araucanas. Not the american araucana, ours follow the British tailed standard, and the aussies. Looks quite similar to the ameraucana, however not quite as heavy in the body, and our araucanas have a crest.
So many people have outcrossed them, due to there being such a tiny gene pool here, and it's just about impossible to import birds into the country, (unless you are insanely rich) that it's really hard to find good quality birds, and all the blacks and blues have red leakage, some really bad. Not helped that most of the 'breeders' here have no idea what they are doing. Can be very frustrating sometimes.

Have a couple of pics taken today of the 5 chicks that hatched from the above pullet, they are 3 days old.

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wow! I love your chicks!

Interesting that my breed Cream Legbar got some of the characteristics of the Brit. Araucana - crest for example..from back in the day of R.C.Punnett (probably before they were a recognized breed.) Female chicks from Legbars look like your center one with the dark dorsal stripes. soo so so so Cute!

It sounds like you really do have advanced knowledge about all the ins and outs of lav and all the things that you need to overcome in your breed. It's interesting about tight import restrictions, but I really understand that too -- because of all the sneaky poultry diseases.

Was in Auckland once for a day -- and do remember NZ being beautiful, and even as a kid it impressed me -- but of course now our reference point to the beauty of NZ is the whole set of the Lord of the Rings movies.

In NZ Araucanas have tails and crests -- but not the tufts that carry the lethal gene - right? and you get blue eggs from your flock?

Thanks, me too

And yea, when i was first starting out in the breed, it was pretty much near impossible trying to find info about the araucana we have in nz, it kept telling me about the ameraucana, and a couple of bits about the true rumpless one lol.

However after a ton of digging, and talking to people here, i found out more, and i am constantly lurking to find more info to such up haha. i figure if i am going to be doing the whole breeding to the standard, i should know what i'm doing.
A lot of the breeder here do my head in, as they have no idea of even the very basics genetically, spout off some stupid crud that is totally wrong, never even bother to find out anything, and then try say they are a great breeder, usually after screwing someone over. As a result, there are only about 3 breeders i would even consider buying eggs off now.
However, have decided to close my flock, and work on breeding what i have, not that i have managed to get my hands on some pretty good birds, some i have bought in as eggs, some adult birds, and a few gems i have bred myself.
Now to spend the next few years working out what pairs best, who throws nasties, and try and get them breeding a bit more consistently.

Oh yes, i'm like a sponge, if i am interested in the topic, i suck up information like no tomorrow lol

And yup, because we are such a tiny country, and a lot of the national income i guess you could say, relies on our export of produce, both fruit, and meat/dairy, it's pretty impossible to bring anything into the country that could affect that. Most of the breeds were smuggled in years ago(often from aussie) before restrictions got tight, and they had scanners haha

Oh wow, what were you doing in auckland? And yes it is a lovely place, for such a small country we have a huge range of terrain lol

And yup, our araucanas have crest like the CCL, however a lot of people have crossed polish and silkie in there to make bigger crests. I hate the bigger crests, i like a compact crest placed back from the face, as seen on the legbar. Plus a lot of aras ow have a recessive extra toe gene from crossing to boofy headed 5 toed breeds. It's a pain in the but. Not to mention many also carry a recessive straight comb gene, they should have pea combs, end of story. And even then, most of the aras here have cushion combs, from extensive cross breeding initially (i think all the aras in nz are descended from a single dozen eggs smuggled in about 50 years ago, or maybe longer) and not enough care taken to breed them back to type.
And yes, they should lay blue eggs, though many lay green, and the odd one pops out sometimes that lays brown. Thankfully i haven't had one of those yet, but anything that doesn't meet my very strict standard gets sold (if a pullet) as a crossbred layer for the backyard. Roosters end up in freezer camp.
And yup, tails, and no tufts, however they do have the beard and muffs, like the ameraucana.

Here's a couple of pics of the best pullet i bred last season. She's got a bit of gold around her neck, not enough to be a brown red, but we will see how she goes. Got a few chicks from her this season, hoping for a lot more next season with my new black cock.
However her shape is about bang on what it should be, she has a lovely crest, good beard/muffing, and a really nice, long, flat back.
Also has a lovely pea comb, and lays a huge, lovely coloured egg. She's also pretty big, which is great, the araucanas here have gotten a bit small the last 10-15 years, the hens aren't much bigger than bantams now.

TwistedFeathers said:

Thanks, me too

And yea, when i was first starting out in the breed, it was pretty much near impossible trying to find info about the araucana we have in nz, it kept telling me about the ameraucana, and a couple of bits about the true rumpless one lol.

However after a ton of digging, and talking to people here, i found out more, and i am constantly lurking to find more info to such up haha. i figure if i am going to be doing the whole breeding to the standard, i should know what i'm doing.
A lot of the breeder here do my head in, as they have no idea of even the very basics genetically, spout off some stupid crud that is totally wrong, never even bother to find out anything, and then try say they are a great breeder, usually after screwing someone over. As a result, there are only about 3 breeders i would even consider buying eggs off now.
However, have decided to close my flock, and work on breeding what i have, not that i have managed to get my hands on some pretty good birds, some i have bought in as eggs, some adult birds, and a few gems i have bred myself.
Now to spend the next few years working out what pairs best, who throws nasties, and try and get them breeding a bit more consistently.

Oh yes, i'm like a sponge, if i am interested in the topic, i suck up information like no tomorrow lol

And yup, because we are such a tiny country, and a lot of the national income i guess you could say, relies on our export of produce, both fruit, and meat/dairy, it's pretty impossible to bring anything into the country that could affect that. Most of the breeds were smuggled in years ago(often from aussie) before restrictions got tight, and they had scanners haha

Oh wow, what were you doing in auckland? And yes it is a lovely place, for such a small country we have a huge range of terrain lol

And yup, our araucanas have crest like the CCL, however a lot of people have crossed polish and silkie in there to make bigger crests. I hate the bigger crests, i like a compact crest placed back from the face, as seen on the legbar. Plus a lot of aras ow have a recessive extra toe gene from crossing to boofy headed 5 toed breeds. It's a pain in the but. Not to mention many also carry a recessive straight comb gene, they should have pea combs, end of story. And even then, most of the aras here have cushion combs, from extensive cross breeding initially (i think all the aras in nz are descended from a single dozen eggs smuggled in about 50 years ago, or maybe longer) and not enough care taken to breed them back to type.
And yes, they should lay blue eggs, though many lay green, and the odd one pops out sometimes that lays brown. Thankfully i haven't had one of those yet, but anything that doesn't meet my very strict standard gets sold (if a pullet) as a crossbred layer for the backyard. Roosters end up in freezer camp.
And yup, tails, and no tufts, however they do have the beard and muffs, like the ameraucana.

Here's a couple of pics of the best pullet i bred last season. She's got a bit of gold around her neck, not enough to be a brown red, but we will see how she goes. Got a few chicks from her this season, hoping for a lot more next season with my new black cock.
However her shape is about bang on what it should be, she has a lovely crest, good beard/muffing, and a really nice, long, flat back.
Also has a lovely pea comb, and lays a huge, lovely coloured egg. She's also pretty big, which is great, the araucanas here have gotten a bit small the last 10-15 years, the hens aren't much bigger than bantams now.

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What a gorgeous chicken - she is a beauty, and what a lot of good info. wow - you do have your work cut out for you -- but I think if this one is an example of what you are doing it will pay off -- and it sounds like a good idea to close your flock.

Some of the same problems in CL -- some folks like big puffy crests and some like me prefer the ones you describe that are neat and compact.

Oh - I was in Auckland in 1958 - on the way to Australia. My father was going to work on his PhD at the University of Queensland and so he took the whole family along with him. So that long ago - was most likely before a lot of folks now on BYC were even born - and so much change -- I'm sure that everything is unlike what it was then. loooooooog time ago.

It sounds like you have such a good handle on what you are doing and where you are going with your birds..... It is interesting about the size being reduced over the years and there is that problem of being outcrossed by people who don't know what they are doing -- so you fight small genepool on one hand of the probably pure genetics and mutt-gene pool infiltration...on the other -- which makes it all super difficult.

My other breed currently is blue Isbar. Probably due to inbreeding the Isbars that I have that I considered the most 'true' to my understanding of Martin Silverudd's birds were/are very small petite. (although one at 3.5 pounds lays a very big 2.25 oz egg.... (1.58kg hen lays 63.78 gram egg)) Add to that the hatch rates are reputedly low and the survivability rate is low -- This spring (next week maybe?) I will be seriously setting my first Isbar eggs --

ChicKat said:

What a gorgeous chicken - she is a beauty, and what a lot of good info. wow - you do have your work cut out for you -- but I think if this one is an example of what you are doing it will pay off -- and it sounds like a good idea to close your flock.

Some of the same problems in CL -- some folks like big puffy crests and some like me prefer the ones you describe that are neat and compact.

Oh - I was in Auckland in 1958 - on the way to Australia. My father was going to work on his PhD at the University of Queensland and so he took the whole family along with him. So that long ago - was most likely before a lot of folks now on BYC were even born - and so much change -- I'm sure that everything is unlike what it was then. loooooooog time ago.

It sounds like you have such a good handle on what you are doing and where you are going with your birds..... It is interesting about the size being reduced over the years and there is that problem of being outcrossed by people who don't know what they are doing -- so you fight small genepool on one hand of the probably pure genetics and mutt-gene pool infiltration...on the other -- which makes it all super difficult.

My other breed currently is blue Isbar. Probably due to inbreeding the Isbars that I have that I considered the most 'true' to my understanding of Martin Silverudd's birds were/are very small petite. (although one at 3.5 pounds lays a very big 2.25 oz egg.... (1.58kg hen lays 63.78 gram egg)) Add to that the hatch rates are reputedly low and the survivability rate is low -- This spring (next week maybe?) I will be seriously setting my first Isbar eggs --

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Yup there is so much work needed on the aras in Nz, so many people think cuz it lays coloured eggs it's a pure araucana, and then there was a massive colour craze where people were crossing in every colour they could, but didn't bother actually breeding back to the standard at all, making it very difficult to actually find birds worth breeding from.
It's taken me 2 years, but i finally feel i have enough good quality birds to be able to close my flock and focus on breeding what i have.

Yup, that's a big problem with things like crests, they are so varied an open to interpretation, and if showing, it all depends on the judge, and what they go for. At one of the shows i went to last year i was rather annoyed at the judge, as he placed size over everything. He passed a couple of my hens that were a little small, but otherwise pretty **** good, and placed birds that were bigger, but had faults, like wrong coloured eyes, incorrect comb, the 2nd place hen had a straight comb (big no no) and to top it off the comb was twisted and folded over 3 times, and she had the wrong colour eyes. The first place bird was the biggest, but really should have been dqed as she was an incorrect colour. For the aras here, all OEG colours are acceptable, however the oeg judge couldn't even name the colour on this hen. So the judge called her a sport so he could place her.
Showing can be very frustrating, however i use it more as a measure, to compare my birds to other people's, and see what i need to work on, see what i already have gotten right, and also use it to get my birds out there, and show off what i have And if they win anything, that's a bonus.

Oh wow that was a fair while ago haha. Auckland is insanely huge now. Probs small compared to some cities around the world, and the states, but for us nzers it is very large.

Yup did tons of research, still doing it and digging and lurking, as i know i have only scratched the very surface.
Yup some days it feels like pushing dung uphill, as there's so many people that haven't the least idea, take anything that lays a green/blue egg, so it MUST be a pure araucana, breed it, then sell the 'pure araucana' offspring. And because our gene pool is so tiny, it's frustrating trying to find good birds when they are drowned out by mutts. And just the menality of some people can do your head in lol.
I pretty much keep my head down now, and take everything with a grain of salt. One thing i will never forget is when i first got started, one of the 'great araucana breeders' came out to have a look at my birds, mainly my rooster, as i had no idea quality wise what they were like, as it was so hard trying to find info.
She said he was from her lines, and pretty decent (found out later his type was amazing, the light breed judge and fantastic breeder raved about him) and then she told me he had a fantastic pea comb. I found out later he had a big, fat cushion comb.
This 'breeder' then tries to go on a bit later about pea combs, and how they are so rare now in aras, and not many people actually bother to breed for them ect ect. And still doesn't have it right, just thinks she does.
That really ****** me off, that someone who is supposed to know, and has a great reputation, would deliberately mislead someone wanting advice and trying to make a start in the breeding.

So yes, can be very hard. The same breeder as above also told me american genetics can't be applied here, and our lav is different to the lav everywhere else and works differently.
Basically, i have learnt, if they are a 'good breeder with a great reputation' i stay well clear, as they seem to have no idea what they are doing, no desire to find out, and will screw you over.

Fingers crossed for a good hatching season for you this coming one. Yes size can be tricky. Wow those are good sized eggs. I have a couple of girls like that, they are crossbreds, with some ara in them, and about the size of a bantam, and for their size lay a biiiig egg. They make fantastic mothers too.

TwistedFeathers said:

Yup there is so much work needed on the aras in Nz, so many people think cuz it lays coloured eggs it's a pure araucana, and then there was a massive colour craze where people were crossing in every colour they could, but didn't bother actually breeding back to the standard at all, making it very difficult to actually find birds worth breeding from.
It's taken me 2 years, but i finally feel i have enough good quality birds to be able to close my flock and focus on breeding what i have.

Yup, that's a big problem with things like crests, they are so varied an open to interpretation, and if showing, it all depends on the judge, and what they go for. At one of the shows i went to last year i was rather annoyed at the judge, as he placed size over everything. He passed a couple of my hens that were a little small, but otherwise pretty **** good, and placed birds that were bigger, but had faults, like wrong coloured eyes, incorrect comb, the 2nd place hen had a straight comb (big no no) and to top it off the comb was twisted and folded over 3 times, and she had the wrong colour eyes. The first place bird was the biggest, but really should have been dqed as she was an incorrect colour. For the aras here, all OEG colours are acceptable, however the oeg judge couldn't even name the colour on this hen. So the judge called her a sport so he could place her.
Showing can be very frustrating, however i use it more as a measure, to compare my birds to other people's, and see what i need to work on, see what i already have gotten right, and also use it to get my birds out there, and show off what i have And if they win anything, that's a bonus.

Oh wow that was a fair while ago haha. Auckland is insanely huge now. Probs small compared to some cities around the world, and the states, but for us nzers it is very large.

Yup did tons of research, still doing it and digging and lurking, as i know i have only scratched the very surface.
Yup some days it feels like pushing dung uphill, as there's so many people that haven't the least idea, take anything that lays a green/blue egg, so it MUST be a pure araucana, breed it, then sell the 'pure araucana' offspring. And because our gene pool is so tiny, it's frustrating trying to find good birds when they are drowned out by mutts. And just the menality of some people can do your head in lol.
I pretty much keep my head down now, and take everything with a grain of salt. One thing i will never forget is when i first got started, one of the 'great araucana breeders' came out to have a look at my birds, mainly my rooster, as i had no idea quality wise what they were like, as it was so hard trying to find info.
She said he was from her lines, and pretty decent (found out later his type was amazing, the light breed judge and fantastic breeder raved about him) and then she told me he had a fantastic pea comb. I found out later he had a big, fat cushion comb.
This 'breeder' then tries to go on a bit later about pea combs, and how they are so rare now in aras, and not many people actually bother to breed for them ect ect. And still doesn't have it right, just thinks she does.
That really ****** me off, that someone who is supposed to know, and has a great reputation, would deliberately mislead someone wanting advice and trying to make a start in the breeding.

So yes, can be very hard. The same breeder as above also told me american genetics can't be applied here, and our lav is different to the lav everywhere else and works differently.
Basically, i have learnt, if they are a 'good breeder with a great reputation' i stay well clear, as they seem to have no idea what they are doing, no desire to find out, and will screw you over.

Fingers crossed for a good hatching season for you this coming one. Yes size can be tricky. Wow those are good sized eggs. I have a couple of girls like that, they are crossbreds, with some ara in them, and about the size of a bantam, and for their size lay a biiiig egg. They make fantastic mothers too.

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Went out to lock everyone in their coops tonight and my two blue Isbar hens are missing. What a heart breaker - because like the rarity over there of good Ara - over here the good Isbar are few and far between. Because just this week I put males together with females -- I have only about 3 of their eggs that could possibly hatch and Isbars are reputedly hard to hatch - so I most likely have nothing now. My fault because I had let them out in a netting fence -- My beautiful rooster is still here -- but no Isbar hens.

Interesting about your experience with 'breeder' and I agree that so many things open to interpretation about a breed - both in the looks (like comb) and in the color.... It is also amazing how low the qualifications of some people are to consider themselves breeders.

BTW like you, I have a Brinsea incubator. Love to watch them get out of their shells.....