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Feeding animal protein to your flock - Page 2

post #11 of 13
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris09 View Post

I compared the new feed tag with a feed tag from the last batch I picked up and the only thing different was they took out the animal products..

As I clearly stated in the beginning of my previous post proteins are not all equal, you can't simply swap plant for animal protein and expect identical results, heck you can't even swap different animals proteins and expect the same results... The cold hard truth is a feed that says 16% protein is really should not be a treated as a quantitative measure of feed quality... A lower protein level feed that is high in the amino acids the animal needs is better than a high protein feed lacking those amino acids, the actual protein absorption rates and ability of the animal to digest said proteins far outweigh raw protein intake... And commercial feed companies are not ashamed to use even inferior animal proteins just to be able to advertise this or that percent on the label... All proteins are made from the same 20 amino acids, and the amounts of those 20 amino acids in any given protein source varies from the next source, even between different 'parts' of the animal used for the protein... So when said feed company switched to plant proteins as you claim they should not have used the same formula they were using when they used animal protein, the plant protein formula should have been supplemented with additional ammo acids to fill in the blanks that resulted when they switched proteins, most importantly for poultry (and other 'meat eaters') the lysine and methionine levels should have been supplemented significantly, and probably some additional plant oils and fats should have been added as well...
Quote:
To be honest I have yet seen a great vegetable based feed. Good maybe but not great.

Evidence of absence is a fallacy, just because you have not seen one does not mean they don't exist and no one can create them... True, you likely won't find an elite commercial vegetarian feed as it's too much trouble to manufacture and the cost would be prohibitive for mass marketing, but that isn't to say one could not and has not formulated their own if they were inclined...
Quote:
There is a difference between, doing just fine and performing at best.

Sure there is a difference... The reason most people see and choose to use animal proteins in show birds is because it's the low cost, easy and simple path to achieve the results they desire, it's much, much, much harder and a lot more work to get the 'elite level' results using plant proteins, but that isn't to say it can't be done, it can... Most people just simply choose not to even try as there is a much, much simpler path to their goal using animal proteins...

One has to also realize that very few chicken owners are striving to achieve elite level results, just like most people that eat healthy and work out are not trying to compete in the Olympics... There is a point where a feed is 'sufficient' based on cost and your desired performance level... There are numerous examples of pro athletes and others that have excelled in their performance and health on vegetarian diets, this kinda debunks that it's a simple inferior/superior subject, and most certainly suggest that it's much more involved and detailed equation...
Quote:
Originally Posted by WhiteAfrican923 View Post

Animal based protein diets are far superior than plant based.

While it may be true the plant proteins on a 1:1 intake are inferior to animal proteins due to lower absorption rates and lower levels of necessary amino acids that omnivorous and carnivores bodies demand, if the pant based diet is adjusted to compensate for the lower absorption and lower specific amino acids (aka supplement, mix and match or eat more of this or that) found in plant proteins, plant proteins 'inferior' status can factually be negated... As I said above all protein, be it from an animal, plant, bacteria, fungi or what not is built using the same 20 amino acids, this is a fact the only difference is how they are assembled... Thus since they use identical building blocks, it's just a matter of getting the proper levels of those 20 amino acids absorbed into by the body, in the end it honestly makes no difference where they come from as long as the properly levels are available to be absorbed...

BTW, even though I might sound like a vegetarian, I'm not and I don't agree with vegetarian diets, but I spent a great deal of time studying nutrition at one point in my life and learned quite a bit, enough to know that many anecdotal claims about proteins don't hold up to scientific fact and study, that is once when you dig in deep and look at the deeper picture not just the surface...
post #12 of 13
This is all very interesting as the only feeds available here are vegetarian. I don't know if thats because animal proteins are banned here, or if its because all our feeds also supply the UK market where animal proteins are banned. Maybe a bit of animal protein would get my girls to actually start laying.
post #13 of 13

MeepBeep

 

I know about Amino Acids, I have posted about them on here in the past and your really not telling me anything new and for the record there are 22 Amino Acids not 20 as you posted.

 

1. aspartic acid
2. glutamic acid
3. phenylalanie
4. glycine
5. histidine
6. isoleucine
7. lysine
8. leucine
9. methionine
10. asparigine
11. proline
12. glutamine
13. arginine
14. serine
15. threonine
16. valine
17. tryptophan
18. selenocysteine
19. pyrrolysine
20. alanine
21. cysteine
22. tyrosine

 

The people that I know that use animal proteins/ products in there mix aren't looking for a easy way out, they have spent years perfecting there feed mix, that's years of research and for some talking to a few collages about poultry nutrition.

I also don't believe it has anything to do with low cost since most animal proteins cost more than plant proteins and when it comes to cost of feed, some of these guys spend good money on there feed mix and are firm believers of you only get out of your stock what you put in your stock.

 

 

ETA ---

 

The 21st selenocysteine, and the 22nd pyrrolysine I believe your missing. ​


Edited by Chris09 - 1/29/16 at 11:49am

 

NPIP # 31-516
Society for the Preservation of Poultry Antiquities http://sppa.webs.com/

Breeding Large Fowl Single and Rose Comb Rhode Island Reds to APA Standard


"I know of no pursuit in which more real and important services can be rendered to any country than by improving its agriculture, its breed of useful animals, and other branches of a husbandman's cares." – 

George Washington

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NPIP # 31-516
Society for the Preservation of Poultry Antiquities http://sppa.webs.com/

Breeding Large Fowl Single and Rose Comb Rhode Island Reds to APA Standard


"I know of no pursuit in which more real and important services can be rendered to any country than by improving its agriculture, its breed of useful animals, and other branches of a husbandman's cares." – 

George Washington

Reply
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