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New name needed for a duck color... - Page 2

post #11 of 20

Personally, I do not think you will get the same results on a duck that is not Light phase.  The intricacies are not yet understood, but to me it looks like a close relationship to Light phase as some sort of modifier gene.

 

I'd like to hear the results of your testing.  I believe if this 'fault' showed up on other varieties then I would be seeing them more often in my journies.  We have about 130 direct Indian Runner descendants from the Holderreads, and also the last of the Runner flock imported to us last fall.

 

Dave and Christine both aren't sure why these markings occur, but sometimes the markings make a Trout look more like a true Silver Appleyard then a Silver Appleyard does. Go figure!

Come visit us at:

http://fb.com/apricotvalleywaterfowl

 

Ontario, Canada.  Purebred rare coloured Indian Runner ducks.

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Come visit us at:

http://fb.com/apricotvalleywaterfowl

 

Ontario, Canada.  Purebred rare coloured Indian Runner ducks.

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post #12 of 20
Thread Starter 

apricotvalleywf, I'm so glad to learn from your experience!  :ya

 

So if I understand you correctly you think that two light genes are required in order for this characteristic to show.  If that is the case, then it cannot show up in my F1 cross with the penciled runner drake, and would be unlikely to show up in F2 because it would depend on the duckling inheriting both a) two light genes, and b) two "striped face" genes (and this would have to be on a M+ type or the stripes wouldn't show in the first place).

 

On the other hand, this factor could potentially show in the cross with the blue dusky and the blue trout, both of which presumably carry two light genes.

 

Do you have any idea, given two light genes, if this characteristic might be dominant or recessive?  If dominant, it would probably show up in my F1 ducklings by either of my two dads carrying the light gene.  If recessive, I probably wouldn't see it until I got the F2 generation, where it could show up in a few of the ducklings that also carried M+.  Although I don't know the genetic make-up of the dads with respect to this factor, I'm guessing that while both carry light genes, since neither showed a face like hers they may not carry that factor.

post #13 of 20
Thread Starter 

 

Update 1:  

 

I bred Cinnamon (Mallard x 2, Light x 2) with Filbert (Dusky x 2, Light x 2, Blue x 1) and got;

 

Apple (Looks Mallard, Light x 2, Blue) and a similar brother.  Apple DID inherit special things from his mom.  He got extra nice head stripes that STAYED in his adult color, so his adult colored head has head stripes.  His neck has white (with a bit of mottled grey) in the front. Apple has a nearly white lower front part, a bright green beak and bright orange feet.  The picture doesn't do him justice, I will have to post another one.  He looks very handsome.  His brother is very similar but a bit darker.

 

 So given a dusky drake but the light gene, Cinnamon was able to pass on her special characteristics.  They passed on in a modified manner, since neither boys had it as marked as she does.  I'd probably have to line breed to get more of them to show.

post #14 of 20
Thread Starter 

Update 2: 

 

Just born!  

 

Cinnamon (Mallard x 2, Light x 2) with a blue Penciled drake.

 

So far, 3 of 4 ducklings are:  brown (2 with a blue gene, one without).  They have small head stripes, white under wing, and white neck fronts.  They do NOT have white bellies, and do NOT have the mallard "4 dots" on their backs. Their backs are pure beige (2) or brown (1).  One of the "beige" ducklings has pure white down in the light parts.  The other two are very pale yellow.

 

 

 

The 4th duckling is.......  All yellow.  I guess Cinnamon carries a recessive white gene!!!  That was unexpected!!!

 

 


Edited by Duck Hill - 7/11/16 at 3:53pm
post #15 of 20
Thread Starter 

The duckings above all grew to have tan head stripes, except of course the yellow duckling became a white duck.  

 

So a duck with Trout (two light genes) mated to a Dusky drake with two light genes (chestnut chest) had two male offspring with white head stripes and a white neck even in breeding plumage.

 

The same duck mated to two Dusky drakes without light genes had offspring (boys and girls) without the white neck and without white head stripes.

post #16 of 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by Duck Hill View Post
 

The duckings above all grew to have tan head stripes, except of course the yellow duckling became a white duck.  

 

So a duck with Trout (two light genes) mated to a Dusky drake with two light genes (chestnut chest) had two male offspring with white head stripes and a white neck even in breeding plumage.

 

The same duck mated to two Dusky drakes without light genes had offspring (boys and girls) without the white neck and without white head stripes.

Got pics?  @Duck Hill

 Western N.C ~ 19 chickens= EE's, Game, variety of bantams,1Light Brahma, 2 Black Australorps . 5 Muscovy ducks, 6 Indian Runners and 2 Buff Orpington Ducks, 1 Embden gander,1 Toulouse goose , 3 mini Dachshunds, 2 mixed breed, pond goldfish,  and a wonderful Husband who makes it all possible..

 

~We are Precious in His Sight.~

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 Western N.C ~ 19 chickens= EE's, Game, variety of bantams,1Light Brahma, 2 Black Australorps . 5 Muscovy ducks, 6 Indian Runners and 2 Buff Orpington Ducks, 1 Embden gander,1 Toulouse goose , 3 mini Dachshunds, 2 mixed breed, pond goldfish,  and a wonderful Husband who makes it all possible..

 

~We are Precious in His Sight.~

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post #17 of 20
Thread Starter 

Cinnamon (laying down on the left) is a trout duck with extra white on her neck.  She was accidentally bred to Crocus, a fawn and white drake (next to her).

 

The offspring had headstripes and tannish fuzz, with the boys having somewhat darker fuzz than the girls at birth.  

 

Girl:  Mallard/Dusky, Brown, Blue (single), Runner (single), Light (single) and "Smooth" (single).  This is one of the ducklings pictured above on 7/7/16.

 

Boy:  Mallard/Dusky, Brown (single so should theoretically not show), Blue (single), Runner (single), Light (single) and "Smooth" (single).  The boy has no head stripes and is also colored under wing.  

 

"Smooth" may be Holderread's "sooty" gene.  As an adult the girl has headstripes but both are COLORED under wing (a.k.a. dusky).  This matches Holderread's claim that sooty makes dusky be incompletely dominant.  They both have a very smooth color without apparent markings on the breast and belly feathers, unlike the mother.  (In the picture, any uneven spots are due to molting).

 

post #18 of 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by Duck Hill View Post
 

Cinnamon (laying down on the left) is a trout duck with extra white on her neck.  She was accidentally bred to Crocus, a fawn and white drake (next to her).

 

The offspring had headstripes and tannish fuzz, with the boys having somewhat darker fuzz than the girls at birth.  

 

Girl:  Mallard/Dusky, Brown, Blue (single), Runner (single), Light (single) and "Smooth" (single).  This is one of the ducklings pictured above on 7/7/16.

 

Boy:  Mallard/Dusky, Brown (single so should theoretically not show), Blue (single), Runner (single), Light (single) and "Smooth" (single).  The boy has no head stripes and is also colored under wing.  

 

"Smooth" may be Holderread's "sooty" gene.  As an adult the girl has headstripes but both are COLORED under wing (a.k.a. dusky).  This matches Holderread's claim that sooty makes dusky be incompletely dominant.  They both have a very smooth color without apparent markings on the breast and belly feathers, unlike the mother.  (In the picture, any uneven spots are due to molting).

 

They sure are pretty.

 Western N.C ~ 19 chickens= EE's, Game, variety of bantams,1Light Brahma, 2 Black Australorps . 5 Muscovy ducks, 6 Indian Runners and 2 Buff Orpington Ducks, 1 Embden gander,1 Toulouse goose , 3 mini Dachshunds, 2 mixed breed, pond goldfish,  and a wonderful Husband who makes it all possible..

 

~We are Precious in His Sight.~

Reply

 Western N.C ~ 19 chickens= EE's, Game, variety of bantams,1Light Brahma, 2 Black Australorps . 5 Muscovy ducks, 6 Indian Runners and 2 Buff Orpington Ducks, 1 Embden gander,1 Toulouse goose , 3 mini Dachshunds, 2 mixed breed, pond goldfish,  and a wonderful Husband who makes it all possible..

 

~We are Precious in His Sight.~

Reply
post #19 of 20
I raised chocolate Muscovies years ago and the pied faults were a real problem when trying to find breeder quality, which is why I ended up breeding mine. I know that some people like the white faults but it becomes so hard to breed faults back out that it is frustrating to breeders when people do it either out of ignorance or on purpose.

If you want to breed ducks, it is better to use breeder quality birds than ones with known faults. They are fine for pets but the reason breeders sell pet quality is to get those birds out of the gene pool without killing them. I admit that I would have killed anything with white if it had shown up in my chocolates because they were polluting the genetics to such a great extent that it was nearly impossible to find breeding quality Muscovies (which is why there are so many pet quality Muscovies people can hardly give away now).

Breeders usually have a goal to preserve breeds according to the standard of perfection. If you are knowingly breeding for faults then I think you should be honest with people and not use incorrect terminology to try to hide that fact. I know I may sound harsh by speaking my mind but I would like to encourage you to be a reputable breeder if it is your goal to breed and sell ducks. What you are doing now is generally called "backyard breeding" and it does not do a breed any good when all the work it takes to keep breeds true to a standard are so quickly wiped out with faults being bred back into a recognized breed.

Your Runners are not show quality so there appears to have been some mixed breeding already. People tend to call Runner crosses Runners because of their more upright posture when compared to other breeds but true Runners are pencil shaped and more erect in a straight line. If you are going to be honest when selling your ducks, I think you should disclose that they are crosses with color faults because that is what they are. You will still get people to buy them if they are cheap enough and they just want them as pets or layers (or meat). If you call them something they are not and your buyers learn what they really are then it will get back to you and ruin your reputation as a breeder. Obviously the choice is yours so that is just my two cents (or keep a penny and make it a penny for my thoughts if that is all they are worth, lol).

I am not meaning to sound harsh or rude as I am saying this with sincerity while knowing that it is hard to type with a soft tone when I am being brutally honest. If you like the pied white faults, then you can certainly breed for them as it is very easy to do. Just be honest in telling people that you are breeding faults on purpose because that is what you like better than the established color and breed standards that reputable breeders adhere to in their breeding programs.
post #20 of 20
Thread Starter 

Duck Drover:  I appreciate your honesty.  I also disagree with you on many points.  

 

:yiipchickFirst, my breeding goals are to breed high quality ducks, NOT to breed show colors, and I am open about that.  Otherwise I would not have posted about my color experiments on this thread.  I am not trying to hide color "faults" nor am I trying to pass on hidden faults to unsuspecting customers.  Instead, I am seeking to understand the color backgrounds of my ducks and I share this information with people who obtain my ducks.

 

:idunnoI disagree strongly with your view that people should never breed "faults" and should only breed approved show colors.  

 

At the start of the Runner breed in Great Britain in 1907 only the fawn and white runner duck was recognized.  If breeders had bred only that one color, culling everything else, then no other color runner ducks would be available now.   The bloodline for that color would certainly be more pure, but what a shame this would have been!!!  Every new show color has started as a "fault" (a.k.a difference) in another color line or group of ducks.  One of the reasons I chose runner ducks is because of their wide variety of colors.  I firmly believe it is important to preserve the genetic variety and diversity of runner ducks.  Only by doing this can we one day create new and beautiful color varieties.  In my own small way I am helping to enhance and preserve genetic diversity in runner ducks.  I believe it is a worthwhile endeavor.  If you, or others, want to create certain lines of runner ducks that are pure genetically for a single color type, go for it!  But someone else does need to preserve and enhance genetic diversity in  runner ducks so that new duck colors can evolve.  This is what I am doing in my own small way.

 

:jumpy  My original ducks are from Holderread Farm and were bought as Top Show Quality ducklings.  I purchased from the rare colors group, being fully aware that these were high quality (TSQ) but not meant to be shown because they were not approved show colors.  It was my intention and goal when I obtained the ducks to breed some unusual colors.  Because I wanted to breed the best body types, I chose runners from Mr. Holderread, who has bred his flock selectively and without outcrossing for many many years. So my ducks are definitely purebred.  I made sure to buy the highest quality available.  And the offspring which my ducks have produced demonstrate this quality.  

 

:he  Note that my pictures are of very low quality and do not adequately represent the quality of my ducks. I find it difficult to get the ducks to stand still in their beautiful upright pose.  The moment I get closer to snap a picture they run off!  In the pictures posted above I was only interested in discussing the duck colors, so I was not concerned about the stance of my ducks. They are not pictured in the typical upright pose that runner ducks take when they are concerned and a bit uncomfortable about their environment.  In the pictures my ducks are interacting with each other and looking for bugs, hence their low posture.  They would be quick enough to stand straight given the right circumstances. My ducks and drakes do have that pencil shape and very upright stance in the right circumstances.   I breed responsively:  I don't only choose for color, but also choose for body types that complement each other to retain a "bottle" shape and a beautiful upright runner body shape.  About half of my ducklings are showing better body shape than their parents, and this will enable me to further improve my flock as I breed for interesting colors.  I do give away those with less promising features as pets.  

 

:caf  I am fascinated by the genes underlyling duck colors.  I have read much of the available literature (Ashton, Holderread, Lancaster, Jaap).  I am undertaking some very small scale research into duck genetics to clarify questions that remain for me.  So I will breed a pair and grow two or three ducklings that give me some information on genetics.  Then I will breed a few more ducklings with another pairing.  This enables me to discover new information, and also lets me try to breed for some interesting colors.  I am doing my best to use correct terminology.  This is sometimes difficult because color names vary extensively from one country to another (e.g., Grey or Brown for Mallards, American versus British Fawn and White (The first has two blue genes while the second does not), and so forth.  In addition to the differences between countries, there is also a lot of good information online from people who have made interesting observations and good comments but who might not know all the terminology.  As a result, I think that in general careful discussions and explanations are needed to make sure that people understand each other.

 

:old  When I use a new name such as "smooth" above, it is not meant to disrespect prior research, and does not necessarily mean I am not aware of terminology.  It is meant as a way to begin a dialogue when I am not sure if I am referring to the same thing as someone else.  For example, Holderread mentions that his "sooty" gene makes the duck darker and smoother overall.  He also mentions that its presence makes "dusky" incompletely dominant over M+.  My "smooth" ducklings are certainly smoother, and they show the incomplete dominance of dusky over M+.  On the other hand, they were born with black fuzz which quickly grayed, while the not-smooth ducklings were born with black fuzz which remained black until they got their feathers. So the "not smooth" ducklings were darker.   Also, my "smooth" dark girl is medium brown overall while her "not smooth" sister is black and beige.  Hard to say which one is darker!  The "not smooth" sister has a slightly darker head than the "smooth" sister.  For this reason I am, for the time being, naming what I observe by a different name until I figure out if it is the same gene which Holderread has observed, or a different one, or a combination of two different genes.

 

:popAt this point I am only at the F1 generation.  Therefore, my ducks may appear as simply mismarked rather than having the beautiful new colors which are my goal.  For example, Fireweed (tan duck with a black head in the above pictures) has a white mismarking on his neck, because he carries a single runner color gene, as well as a single M+ gene and a single Light gene. This makes him definitely "pet quality" as he stands.  However, in the F2 generation, bred to a female with similar genes, he will be able to generate an occasional pied trout baby and an occasional "faulted" trout baby (more white on a female neck than a regular trout and head stripes on adult breeding males).  These colors are part of my "new color" goals.  I need to go through the intermediate F1 phase to get there.  Because ducks that carry a single runner gene do have some white feathers, and ducks that have two genes with runner pattern show the full pattern, I will be able to select F2 ducks that are pure double runner genes (pied trout) and pure "faulted trout" babies (no extra white, no runner genes).  At that point I will be able to begin breeding stable gene pools for each pattern!     

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