Size Matters

5Sons Coop said:

There is the food I am using and like I said earlier a little corn and table scrap as well. Is the something I can change to get larger eggs?

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Maybe I said this before, but chicken feed is usually formulated/made to give just barely enough nutrition to get the hens to lay. The feed doesn't usually go above and beyond the minimum to keep the hens laying. At 16% they will lay. They may not need 18% to lay, but they can lay more easily at 18% and they will lay bigger eggs if they are capable of laying bigger eggs. And they won't be so quick to go out of laying during their molt or in the winter. It supports them in their laying better than 16% does, but they'll still lay at 16%. There is no layer that I know of that is 15% because hens don't lay properly at 15%. I used to be able to find 18% before we started formulating our own to 18%.

Depending on how many chickens you have and depending on the composition of your kitchen scraps, your hens may be getting 18% protein. Look at how much milk, yogurt, cheese, bacon, roast, fish, hamburger, eggs is in your scraps. All animal protein counts toward that 18% minimum. About 1/2 an ounce more per chicken will do the trick. So that's about 1/2 a slice of cheese (real cheese, not cheese food). So let them pick all the meat off any bones you have left over if you aren't already. Scrape all your pans if they have any bits of meat or eggs in them. You know the drill. And because the animal protein is a "complete" protein, you can more easily make up the difference depending on the lysine and methionine that's missing from the partial complete proteins in the grains and legumes. That's difficult (more work than I ever want to do) to evaluate based on the feed tag info alone.

Leghorns in the factory at about 70F (21C) eat about 4 ounces of feed a day when laying. Dual purpose chickens (the browns and blacks are more like a dual-purpose than like a leghorn) in 70F (21C) eat around 6 oz. of feed per day when in lay. They should mostly be getting that actual balanced feed if you want them to lay up to capacity both in numbers and size. However, economics plays a part and it's silly to not feed your scraps to the chickens. I don't know where the line is for you to make money off the eggs vs. how much you have to spend on the feed to get them to lay those eggs. But pounds and pounds of white bread or apples or rice isn't going to provide enough nutrients to keep them laying big eggs at a frequency that is useful. And usually they will lay 6/week during that first year and the size will drop before the frequency will drop because that's the way those birds are bred to perform.

Don't forget grit.

Consider buying that probiotics stuff ... maybe it's called probios ... at the feed store or animal health store. It comes in a paste for horses, but the powdered form is handy to add to chickden feed once a week or so. Some packaged feeds actually include a bunch of the probiotics in it. I don't think it will provide bigger eggs, but your feed doesn't have any in it and studies say it's great. It could be a bit of fad, though, even though the studies are all pro-probiotics for chickens.

Your feed doesn't appear to have any Vit K in it either. Usually it's listed as menadione nicotinamide or similar. If you plan to hatch eggs, chicks supposedly need Vit K in the first days of life, so you may want to consider changing feed if you plan on hatching chicks. Change feed 2-3 weeks before collecting eggs for hatching. They'll hatch, but the chicks can die/do poorly without Vit K ... or at least that's what the chicken nutritionists say.

What is up with the "natural flavoring" that is listed as the last ingredient? What natural flavor does the feed need to be palatable to the chickens? And does that flavor go through the chickens and into the eggs? I haven't seen that before and will put that on the back burner to research. It makes me wonder if the feed doesn't taste very good and so the chickens won't eat enough of it unless it's got the natural flavoring in it. Feed should taste good enough to eat without having to add natural flavoring to it, right? Or am I wrong? That's part of why we added stuff like sunflower meal and alfalfa meal to our feed mix ... to make it taste good. It never occurred to us to add "natural flavorings."

I look up Sunnyside hatchery. They appear to have good prices. Nice. Sunnyside mentioned "Dekalb Black" on their front page. Dekalb is run by ISA Poultry, I believe, so we can check out the info on the chicken and see if they are supposed to lay a medium egg, a large egg, or what? When I go to the ISA Poultry web site, though, they don't mention a "Dekalb Black" as being available this year. The photo on the ISA Poultry site of the Bovans Black matches the photo of the black chicken shown on the Sunnyside web site. That may not mean anything, or it could mean that actually you have a Bovans Black. It's pretty common for a hatchery like Sunnyside to list them as Dekalb because they get them from the same company ISA Poultry. It's no big deal. We're just trying to track down what you should expect in egg size based on which chicken you bought.

Those ISA Poultry birds are pretty much all standard in how they perform. That's the whole point in what ISA is doing. So if you reared the chicks according to the way they suggest on the ISA Poultry web site, then your hens will live up to the performance parameters they list on the ISA Poultry web site. But I certainly don't do that. I do not keep them in a heated environment after they are completely feathered out. I also only do the minimum on the lighting that some of the big factory chicken providers suggest (you know, were you decrease the day length until week X and then start lengthening the day length at week X and then keep the day length at 16? hours for the remainder of their lives?) I don't do that. So, I don't expect my hens to live up to what ISA Poultry claims. I don't run an egg factory and the ISA Poultry (Dekald, Bovans, Shaver, etc.) are meant to be raised in very exact conditions because the factory farm is trying to make a living at selling eggs and that ain't easy these days.

But the Bovans Black is supposed to lay eggs that average 62.3grams (2.1 oz) So that's a large egg.

The white leghorn pic at Sunnyside matches the Dekalb White at the ISA Poultry site. Average egg weight is supposed to be 63.1g. That's also a large egg, but close to an "extra large" which starts at 63.9g.

The brown photo at the Sunnyside site doesn't match any of the brown chickens at the ISA Poultry site, but most of them are supposed to lay eggs that average about the same size as those two above.

And just because the photos match, it doesn't mean that you have that hybrid breed. Sunnyside is probably just giving you the pics that ISA Poultry gave them. They are all similar chickens, bred for high egg production.

So, I think your main question was ... Is there anything I can do to get bigger eggs?

Get them up to about 18% protein level. I would probably keep the corn available since they seem to be regulating themselves well with it (as in not eating it exclusively). I would try to make some evaluation on the composition of the table scraps regarding 1) amount of animal-sourced protein included and 2) how much bulk of the scraps are low nutrient (for chickens) items such as rice and if that is replacing the "balanced layer feed" 3) economics ... whether any changes will increase costs and if that will actually sell more eggs for you.

You could consider marketing your eggs differently. Size does matter, but maybe farm fresh is better than size. Or some other benefit that your eggs provide even though they're not all jumbo sized. Maybe telling buyers that "naturally raised" hens don't lay jumbo eggs. That people demand jumbo eggs, but that's bigger than what is natural and it's better to let the hens do things in a more natural manner. ????? Surely, I don't know. But you could ask around here at BYC to see how other forum members market their eggs that aren't jumbo sized. ???? Just an idea.

How much do your eggs weigh? The chickens you have probably won't lay eggs the average 2.1-2.2 ounces if you have Dekalb chickens. [Edit: Comments about this sentence I wrote: What? What does that sentence even mean? I think that might be a stupid sentence. I have no idea what I meant when I wrote it. I believe that Dekalb ISA Poultry chickens will often lay that size of egg in the summer months if the nights are warm-ish, if they were reared during the chick period well (nutrition, lighting, temps, etc.), and if they get 18% protein.]

Ugh. It's late. I hope there's not too many typos in that. Will look it over again tomorrow. Almost brain dead right now.

RonoKT said:

Does the light of a heat lamp have a negative impact? I'm currently raising up some chicks, they have red lamp on 24/7 but I also have a flourescant light I use to extend their day to average summer day lengths. Should I restrict all light for future egg production? I am extending their day so that I can spend time with them after work but I would possibly look at an alternative to this if I can improve future production. Very interesting topic!

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London? You're in London? Oh, I loved my couple of weeks in London and rest of UK. That photo over to the left was taken in Selfridge's on Oxford St.

The pineal gland has an affect on the hormones that affect growth. It is affected by light. The extra light will cause earlier maturity. Any light from any source (red, blue, full spectrum) will be detected by the pineal gland even when the eyes are closed.

It's about day length. It's also about whether or not there is a night. It's also about whether the days are getting shorter or longer.

You didn't mention how old your chicks are, so forgive me if I am not speaking to the point.

If your chicks are 8 weeks or younger, then supposedly it doesn't matter.

After 8 weeks, though, it's good for home growers to just have the chicks on natural light. Chicks are naturally raised at this time of year -- not surprisingly because hens are experiencing days that are lengthening and they are becoming fertile and returning to laying (if it's after their 2nd winter) or are increasing their laying if it's after their first winter. When the temperature is right, some hens will go broody and start setting on those eggs. I have three broodies myself right now.

But it's the days getting incrementally longer each day that alerts hens that it's time to start laying again because it's spring. I've had many a hen that starts laying again right after Christmas (winter solstice).

If little chicks don't experience a night time, then they are in an unnatural state of hormone production.

Since you are providing some night time, you are in a different category.

I can't remember off the top of my head how the lighting is supposed to be done at the factory.

I know chicks that are hatched by backyard chicken keepers (in Northern Hemisphere) in July and August won't usually lay until the following spring. It doesn't matter when they turn 5 or 6 months old. What matters is whether or not they've experienced a period of lengthening daylight each day. A chick hatched in July was hatched after the summer solstice and will be raised completely in a period where the days are decreasing in length, so she most likely won't lay until sometime after the winter solstice and possibly not until February or March. A June hatched chick is on the fence because "amount" of daylight is also included. A June hatched chick may or may not start laying in the fall and continue throughout the winter. May chicks are often fine and start laying in the fall. I've read this and experienced it all myself.

So, to the point, I don't know about your chickens. We are nearing the equinox. Maybe with the sun setting later and later and you living at a high latitude will mean that you will be home from work during daylight soon. ???? And that this issue will resolve itself soon and won't extend past 12 weeks. ????

I don't know what to say. You could research this further online. The info is out there ... somewhere. I researched it because I was trying to figure out why some of my chickens were laying smaller eggs than they should have been.

What would work for me. I have no idea if it would work for you. It's fine to have the lights on 24/7 until age 8 weeks. At 6 weeks chicks should be feathered out completely and can be outside, so I'd have mine outside in a coop. I probably wouldn't be heating them any longer if most nights were somewhere in the 50s.

But this is March, so I don't know. Maybe I could set up a ceramic oil heater in the coop in a way that they couldn't get to it and get hurt or hurt it???? And that fire wasn't an issue.

I would have them in a coop with windows so that they had light throughout the day. Then darkness would settle naturally.

When I got home, I would go out to the coop. Turn on the regular light. Give them a couple treats. Hang out. Play with them. Or bring one up to the house with me (if I knew they didn't have mites). Half an hour won't cause much disturbance. I don't think this would cause any problem with later egg production.

I base that on some feeding schedules that are used by factories that did all the studies and were able to turn off the lights after 14 or so hours of light, but then turn them back on to increase food intake. That little bit of time didn't affect the mature hens except to allow for an extra feeding. It didn't cause them to think it was a new day either.

So I would feel safe with that.

Because you are exending the day to "average summer day lengths," they aren't getting that slow increase in day lengths that chickens naturally have. Truly, though, think it through yourself. You may come up with the answer yourself. I mean, after all, it's not like you are keeping a red light on them all night, which would be detrimental. Your chicks are still getting night time.

Research a bit yourself on how to light chicks and egg size issues. You might be able to get away with it. If you do end up turning off the light in May when the chicks are 14 weeks, I might just keep it on because the summer solstice is almost here and suddenly shortening the day for your 14-week-old chicks might in itself goof them up. I don't know.

A red heat lamp on all night, though, will, according to the experts, trigger the pineal gland and cause early maturity and the likelihood of egg laying commencement before the hen can get big enough to lay a big egg, resulting in eggs that will always be smaller than they would have been if the lights were left off.

I think maybe I shouldn't answer questions when it's late. I just start rambling and never stop.

I wish you and your chickies well.

Spangled said:

London?  You're in London?  Oh, I loved my couple of weeks in London and rest of UK.  That photo over to the left was taken in Selfridge's on Oxford St.

The pineal gland has an affect on the hormones that affect growth.  It is affected by light.  The extra light will cause earlier maturity.  Any light from any source (red, blue, full spectrum) will be detected by the pineal gland even when the eyes are closed.

It's about day length.  It's also about whether or not there is a night.  It's also about whether the days are getting shorter or longer.

You didn't mention how old your chicks are, so forgive me if I am not speaking to the point.

If your chicks are 8 weeks or younger, then supposedly it doesn't matter.

After 8 weeks, though, it's good for home growers to just have the chicks on natural light.  Chicks are naturally raised at this time of year -- not surprisingly because hens are experiencing days that are lengthening and they are becoming fertile and returning to laying (if it's after their 2nd winter) or are increasing their laying if it's after their first winter.  When the temperature is right, some hens will go broody and start setting on those eggs.  I have three broodies myself right now.

But it's the days getting incrementally longer each day that alerts hens that it's time to start laying again because it's spring.  I've had many a hen that starts laying again right after Christmas (winter solstice).

If little chicks don't experience a night time, then they are in an unnatural state of hormone production.

Since you are providing some night time, you are in a different category.

I can't remember off the top of my head how the lighting is supposed to be done at the factory. 

I know chicks that are hatched by backyard chicken keepers (in Northern Hemisphere) in July and August won't usually lay until the following spring.  It doesn't matter when they turn 5 or 6 months old.  What matters is whether or not they've experienced a period of lengthening daylight each day.  A chick hatched in July was hatched after the summer solstice and will be raised completely in a period where the days are decreasing in length, so she most likely won't lay until sometime after the winter solstice and possibly not until February or March.  A June hatched chick is on the fence because "amount" of daylight is also included.  A June hatched chick may or may not start laying in the fall and continue throughout the winter.  May chicks are often fine and start laying in the fall.  I've read this and experienced it all myself.

So, to the point, I don't know about your chickens.  We are nearing the equinox.  Maybe with the sun setting later and later and you living at a high latitude will mean that you will be home from work during daylight soon. ????  And that this issue will resolve itself soon and won't extend past 12 weeks. ????

I don't know what to say.  You could research this further online.  The info is out there ... somewhere.  I researched it because I was trying to figure out why some of my chickens were laying smaller eggs than they should have been. 

What would work for me.  I have no idea if it would work for you.  It's fine to have the lights on 24/7 until age 8 weeks.  At 6 weeks chicks should be feathered out completely and can be outside, so I'd have mine outside in a coop.  I probably wouldn't be heating them any longer if most nights were somewhere in the 50s. 

But this is March, so I don't know.  Maybe I could set up a ceramic oil heater in the coop in a way that they couldn't get to it and get hurt or hurt it????  And that fire wasn't an issue.

I would have them in a coop with windows so that they had light throughout the day.  Then darkness would settle naturally.

When I got home, I would go out to the coop.  Turn on the regular light.  Give them a couple treats.  Hang out.  Play with them.  Or bring one up to the house with me (if I knew they didn't have mites).  Half an hour won't cause much disturbance.  I don't think this would cause any problem with later egg production.

I base that on some feeding schedules that are used by factories that did all the studies and were able to turn off the lights after 14 or so hours of light, but then turn them back on to increase food intake.  That little bit of time didn't affect the mature hens except to allow for an extra feeding.  It didn't cause them to think it was a new day either.

So I would feel safe with that.

Because you are exending the day to "average summer day lengths," they aren't getting that slow increase in day lengths that chickens naturally have.  Truly, though, think it through yourself.  You may come up with the answer yourself.  I mean, after all, it's not like you are keeping a red light on them all night, which would be detrimental.  Your chicks are still getting night time.

Research a bit yourself on how to light chicks and egg size issues.  You might be able to get away with it.  If you do end up turning off the light in May when the chicks are 14 weeks, I might just keep it on because the summer solstice is almost here and suddenly shortening the day for your 14-week-old chicks might in itself goof them up.  I don't know. 

A red heat lamp on all night, though, will, according to the experts, trigger the pineal gland and cause early maturity and the likelihood of egg laying commencement before the hen can get big enough to lay a big egg, resulting in eggs that will always be smaller than they would have been if the lights were left off. 

I think maybe I shouldn't answer questions when it's late.  I just start rambling and never stop.

I wish you and your chickies well.

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I'm glad you like London, it's an amazing city although I look forward to a time when I can live a more rural life.

Your post has loads of great information and will be a starting point for me to look I to this, I was aware light had an effect but had bit been considering the long term effect.

I have chicks of various ages, the eldest are about to turn 8 weeks, so just in time to get them off the red light. I have a ceramic heat element that I will replace it with. The eldest would be fine without any heat but I as I have some younger chicks too, I need to keep
Some heat source. I will also stop extending their day, you are correct, soon I will be home in light (British summer time clock change is soon) and I can always put a light on while I am with them. They live in a greenhouse so other than my interventions they are fully aware of the nature light levels. I hatched them so early in the year, hoping to get eggs this year, so it makes sense to have the in only natural light.
The last chicks I had where Ross 308 and the recommendations from aviagen are for 23 hours of light for their whole lives. I did not give them 23 hours but I did extend the light through the dark winter months, as well as periodically giving them "midnight snacks"'with the lights. They where for meat not eggs though so I do need to change my approach.
Thank you for your detailed and thought provoking post.

I can surely up the protein in table scrape! Can I give them too much protein? I am ordering 9 more chickens 3 of each My coop has the room and I am hoping the extra chickens will add enough body heat to keep them all cozy next winter. If I feel I need a heat source I will not use light. My hens are my babies not slaves. When I can get chicks so cheap I have no plans of hatching until I am an "empty nester". But thanks for the Vit K info it will be an issue for me in a few years. I can not thank you enough for your time. What a great answer (I need to reread several times). My chickens are almost 1yr old and were laying last fall. With the warm weather and rain the egg size went up....thinking earth worm protein did it. I laughed at natural flavor too. Must be a sales gimmic.

5Sons Coop said:

Can I give them too much protein?

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Um. Yeah. But with 15 chickens, soon to be 9 more, I think it could be difficult. One day of eating a 2 lb. bag of almost moldy cheese won't give them too much protein. About 1/2 an ounce of animal protein per chicken extra will do the trick ... even for molting season or the few weeks before collecting eggs for hatching. So for 15 chickens that would be about 1/2 pound of extra protein. That's a lot of expensive table scraps from one family. If you feed them the 1/2 pound of extra protein daily (???? that will get expensive, yes?) and with the complete feed and the corn out at all times in separate feeders, they should do fine regulating themselves. They would do fine with less animal protein than that, too. But 1/2 an ounce isn't too much.

I let mine just sit out overnight and feed it when handy the next day sometime. I used to worry more about keeping it in the fridge, but it doesn't mold overnight, maybe some bacteria grow, but the chickens here seem to do just fine. Taking out the scraps more often than once a day seems like more work than it's worth. As always, your mileage may vary. Mine are mostly my own cross with a couple of hatchery birds to just enjoy because I haven't ever had that breed before (like a Minorca and a Dorking). I don't think there would be much difference with your production hybrids and eating table scraps left out overnight. But they should eat it all the scraps up that day. Some folks say "within 15 minutes and after that, take it away." Mine usually eat all our scraps within 1 - 20 minutes. So, I know that they aren't getting overly filled up with table scraps.

If you were feeding them as laying hens 25% protein, then that would be too much. I wouldn't personally feed a laying hen 22% protein because it's a waste of money and protein and I think a burden on her kidneys and liver. I'd cut that feed. That's what broilers that are trying to gain weight eat, so that sits wrong with me if my hens are eating that way.

5Sons Coop said:

I am ordering 9 more chickens 3 of each My coop has the room and I am hoping the extra chickens will add enough body heat to keep them all cozy next winter.

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Sounds smart. Our coop stays surprisingly warm because of the chickens' body heat. Our coop is not insulated. We sold our insulated one because it was from when we were starting out. It was too small for the number of chickens we eventually wanted. We didn't know that we needed to allow for ventilation that first winter and we had a bit of frostbite. The coop that our layers are in now is extremely well ventilated and yet stays above freezing even down to 20F overnight because those chickens keep it so warm.

5Sons Coop said:

. My chickens are almost 1yr old and were laying last fall. With the warm weather and rain the egg size went up....thinking earth worm protein did it.

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The worms certainly made a difference. And warmth does, too. If it's 0F (to pull a number out of my hat), the chickens can have a hard time eating enough to keep themselves warm AND also eating enough to lay a large egg or just keep in production. I don't know where "too cold" is for your chickens. This fall (late, late summer), though, you will notice that many of your current hens will stop laying for the molt and they won't start back up until they are warm and after the winter solstice. Your young layers will lay through winter. Once layers reach full maturity ... 7 or 8 months??? (depends on who you talk to) ... you can put lights up to keep the older hens laying. For some that is controversial. But a couple of strings of LED lights are cheap to run. The timer costs more that the lights. There are lots of posts on that here at BYC. I did it one winter, last winter or winter before, to see how things went.

Since I upped the protein by just giving them more in table scrap my eggs got huge. I do not have a scale but a reused large egg container is a struggle to close if you can. They are woofing down the oyster shell too. I am sure that is due to the demand of the larger egg. I assume the lack of nartural grit (very wet spring) and maybe the need for more grit to process the meat scrap contributes. Thanks again for the great advice.