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Too much calcium? - Page 2

post #11 of 17

Looking at the calcium math from an even more interesting angle, @KsKingBee if you are feeding a dozen eggs to around 100 birds, that's about 1/10 of an eggshell per bird.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Birdrain92 View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Garden Peas View Post
 

Cool!  Chemistry AND math in one question, yaay! 

 

So a little internet searching suggests that the eggshell itself is about 95% calcium carbonate, good old CaCO3.  One source said eggshell powder is about 39% elemental calcium (so the other approximately 60% is going to be the carbonate fraction).

 

If you weigh your eggshells (you only have to do this once, approximations will be close enough), then multiply by 0.4, that will be the approximate weight of the calcium.  My guess is that when you then divide that weight in grams by the weight in grams of the amount of feed you are giving your flock at that feeding (don't include the weight of the water, though), you are going to find you have a very small number.  Just guessing, but I'm thinking the number of grams in a dozen eggshells compared to the weight of feed for what, around 100 birds(?) is going to be much less than 1%.

 

In other words, do the math one time, but I bet the difference in the amount of added calcium is less than the "slop" in the label calcium content of "between 2 - 3 %" from the bag.

 

Does that help?

 

I betcha @Birdrain92 can do the chemistry precisely, too! 

 

 

Favorite two subjects! USDA Large egg ways 2 ounces. I think that's with everything in it, not sure. Let's just say that's the egg shell weight to make things simple. It takes 16 ounces to make a one pound. Just to make things simple lets keep it in lbs. since that's what most feed bags are in, or at least in my area. If 40% of an eggshell is calcium itself than we multiply 2 ounces to 0.4. So that means 0.8 ounces of the eggshell is calcium. Lets say you have a 50lb bag of feed. For a daily life of peafowl they need roughly 2% calcium. For a peahen laying I think it would be maybe 3.5% calcium for a good quality egg shell and healthy peahen. To figure this out you would multiple 0.035 to 50 which equals 1.75. That means 1.75lbs of the 50lbs is pure calcium. We need to get it to ounces to make it on similar playing field. So we multiple 1.75 to 16. That way it's in ounces, which equals, 28 ounces of calcium. 40% of an egg shell is calcium. So we need to divide to get to the weight of egg shells in the feed, 70 ounces of egg shells. The reason why we divided is because we multiplied to go from egg shell weight to weight of calcium. To go backwards we have to divide. Then we divide that number by 2. That means there are 35 eggshells in that 50lb bag of feed in our scenario. To double check we can take 50 times it by 16 to get it into ounces. 800 ounces. Take 28 and divide it 800 and you come up with 0.035 which equals 3.5% calcium. It you wish to double check that you got the right percentage, take the weight of the nutrient itself and divide it by the weight of all the feed. The ironic part is we just had a test over make rations in my college Animal Science class. I hope this wasn't too confusing. Next thing I can teach you all is how to do Pearson squares.


Well, except for the part of grossly over-estimating the calcium...  the egg shell weight is much less than the weight of the liquid contents.  So instead of 2 ounces times 0.4, it's gonna be less than 1/4 ounce times 0.4.  (I just weighed a chicken egg shell -- slightly damp with the membrane inside, it was 7 grams.)  There aren't 0.8 ounces of shell IN an egg shell.  0.4 x 7 grams is 2.8 grams, or 2800 milligrams of calcium, which is still an overestimate since I didn't dry the shell or peel out the membrane.

 

@KsKingBee's birds are getting about 1/10 of an eggshell each per day, or something less than 280 mg of elemental calcium per bird, in addition to the amount of calcium in the feed already.  That's about as much calcium as in a glass of milk, or as much calcium as in 4 crickets.

 

Hens lay a whole pea-egg's worth of calcium every other day during laying season -- in addition to the other ways they use up calcium, they are excreting that much more in their own shells.  So they excrete more than five times as much calcium per day as would be added.

 

A dozen chicken eggs would have less than 34 grams of calcium (that's roughly an ounce) total in the whole pile of shells.  I strongly suspect that the weight of feed (dry weight, before adding water moisture) for 100 birds is more like 3 kilograms (roughly 6 1/2 pounds) or maybe more...  34 grams x 100 is 3400 grams, which is 3.4 kg... if the feed weighs that much or more, he's adding 1% or less.  The more the feed weighs, the lower percent of calcium it adds.

 

To bump up a 50lb bag of feed (22.73 kg) by 3.5% calcium, you would have to add 795 grams of calcium -- that's about 1 3/4 pounds of elemental calcium, which would be almost 2 kg (4.4 lb) of egg shells. That's the egg shells from about 284 eggs (almost 24 dozen eggs) added to the bag of feed.  Every 81 egg shells increases the percent of calcium in the 50 lb bag by 1%.

Using metric units is MUCH easier here. :gig

 

Here are two very cool articles about calcium and other nutrients in bugs and insects -- some favorite pea treats!

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-2283364/Grubs-Insects-packed-protein-calcium-minerals-imagine-ordering-mealworm-burger.html

 

http://www.organicvaluerecovery.com/studies/studies_nutrient_content_of_insects.htm

 

Insects are PACKED with protein and calcium, in case you are hungry... :lau

-- The Accidental Peahen
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-- The Accidental Peahen
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post #12 of 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by Garden Peas View Post
 

Looking at the calcium math from an even more interesting angle, @KsKingBee if you are feeding a dozen eggs to around 100 birds, that's about 1/10 of an eggshell per bird.


Well, except for the part of grossly over-estimating the calcium...  the egg shell weight is much less than the weight of the liquid contents.  So instead of 2 ounces times 0.4, it's gonna be less than 1/4 ounce times 0.4.  (I just weighed a chicken egg shell -- slightly damp with the membrane inside, it was 7 grams.)  There aren't 0.8 ounces of shell IN an egg shell.  0.4 x 7 grams is 2.8 grams, or 2800 milligrams of calcium, which is still an overestimate since I didn't dry the shell or peel out the membrane.

 

@KsKingBee's birds are getting about 1/10 of an eggshell each per day, or something less than 280 mg of elemental calcium per bird, in addition to the amount of calcium in the feed already.  That's about as much calcium as in a glass of milk, or as much calcium as in 4 crickets.

 

Hens lay a whole pea-egg's worth of calcium every other day during laying season -- in addition to the other ways they use up calcium, they are excreting that much more in their own shells.  So they excrete more than five times as much calcium per day as would be added.

 

A dozen chicken eggs would have less than 34 grams of calcium (that's roughly an ounce) total in the whole pile of shells.  I strongly suspect that the weight of feed (dry weight, before adding water moisture) for 100 birds is more like 3 kilograms (roughly 6 1/2 pounds) or maybe more...  34 grams x 100 is 3400 grams, which is 3.4 kg... if the feed weighs that much or more, he's adding 1% or less.  The more the feed weighs, the lower percent of calcium it adds.

 

To bump up a 50lb bag of feed (22.73 kg) by 3.5% calcium, you would have to add 795 grams of calcium -- that's about 1 3/4 pounds of elemental calcium, which would be almost 2 kg (4.4 lb) of egg shells. That's the egg shells from about 284 eggs (almost 24 dozen eggs) added to the bag of feed.  Every 81 egg shells increases the percent of calcium in the 50 lb bag by 1%.

Using metric units is MUCH easier here. :gig

 

Here are two very cool articles about calcium and other nutrients in bugs and insects -- some favorite pea treats!

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-2283364/Grubs-Insects-packed-protein-calcium-minerals-imagine-ordering-mealworm-burger.html

 

http://www.organicvaluerecovery.com/studies/studies_nutrient_content_of_insects.htm

 

Insects are PACKED with protein and calcium, in case you are hungry... :lau

I know the shell is lighter but since I couldn't find the weight last night I just used it as an example though in reality it's not. You just need to take certain numbers out and plug certain numbers in. Same equation and process.

post #13 of 17
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Birdrain92 View Post
 

I know the shell is lighter but since I couldn't find the weight last night I just used it as an example though in reality it's not. You just need to take certain numbers out and plug certain numbers in. Same equation and process.

 

Wow, you guys are all over this!  and I thought I was over it...

 

Ok, we shall noodle this out, but first I will get some good numbers.

 

All my breeding pens have broken egg shells (chicken) on the ground, I assume that if they needed more that they would clean that up.  I will check the labels again today for the calcium content of each of the additives in my mash and weigh the dry ingredients.  Some of the ingredients will have no listings on the label like the crimped milo or the whole oats.  The Alfalfa, Game Bird Breeder/Starter, and Catfish food will.  We won't worry about the mackerel, bananas, or peanuts as they are not an everyday staple.

 

Thanks again, I just don't want to cause some type of internal problem by overloading them up with too much of anything.

NPIP # KS-412

Black Copper Marans, Easter Eggers, Mutts, ducks, and PEAFOWL!!!  India Blue, IB White Eye, IB Pied WE split Cameo, IB Silver Pied, IBBS, IBBS split Cameo, IBBS Pied, IBBS WE, Cameo, CBS (Oaten), Cameo Pied, CPWE, CSP, and Purple Black Shoulder. African Gray Parrots, a bunch of those dang guineas.  Oh, and honeybees, around 200 hives.  And two Great Pyrenees puppies.

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NPIP # KS-412

Black Copper Marans, Easter Eggers, Mutts, ducks, and PEAFOWL!!!  India Blue, IB White Eye, IB Pied WE split Cameo, IB Silver Pied, IBBS, IBBS split Cameo, IBBS Pied, IBBS WE, Cameo, CBS (Oaten), Cameo Pied, CPWE, CSP, and Purple Black Shoulder. African Gray Parrots, a bunch of those dang guineas.  Oh, and honeybees, around 200 hives.  And two Great Pyrenees puppies.

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post #14 of 17

When I re-weighed my egg shell (after letting it dry for a few hours), it was down to 6 grams -- I think the membrane was holding a lot of moisture.  That 6 gm weight still includes the membrane tissue, so still a bit of an over-estimate of the shell weight.

 

My son was teasing me last night that my new "standard reference unit" for the amount of calcium in anything is going to be the cricket.  As in, food item z has about the same amount of calcium as x number of crickets.  For example, there are about 4 cricket's worth of calcium in a glass of milk.  And just like milk, apparently you can get your crickets chocolate-flavored these days :lau

 

We can get approximate numbers for calcium content for most any of your feed ingredients by looking on the internet.  But before we crunch your whole feed, I really do think we should just do a simple comparison of the weight of the eggshells you are adding compared to the dry weight of your feed ingredients.  Chances are that will tell us that the added calcium is well under 1%, and is not going to change the dietary level of calcium in the feed ration significantly.

 

After that, if you would still like to calculate it out to the gnat's eyelash, we can charge onward. :yiipchick

 

Here is a nicely written article, in understandable language, which explains the issues that you mention:

 

http://nilesanimalhospital.com/files/2012/05/Calcium-Phosphorus-and-Vitamin-D3-Imbalances.pdf

 

Worth noting -- the oils in seeds and grains may bind calcium in the intestine, preventing it from being used in the body.  So that's something to read carefully and think about.

-- The Accidental Peahen
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-- The Accidental Peahen
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post #15 of 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by Garden Peas View Post
 

When I re-weighed my egg shell (after letting it dry for a few hours), it was down to 6 grams -- I think the membrane was holding a lot of moisture.  That 6 gm weight still includes the membrane tissue, so still a bit of an over-estimate of the shell weight.

 

My son was teasing me last night that my new "standard reference unit" for the amount of calcium in anything is going to be the cricket.  As in, food item z has about the same amount of calcium as x number of crickets.  For example, there are about 4 cricket's worth of calcium in a glass of milk.  And just like milk, apparently you can get your crickets chocolate-flavored these days :lau

 

We can get approximate numbers for calcium content for most any of your feed ingredients by looking on the internet.  But before we crunch your whole feed, I really do think we should just do a simple comparison of the weight of the eggshells you are adding compared to the dry weight of your feed ingredients.  Chances are that will tell us that the added calcium is well under 1%, and is not going to change the dietary level of calcium in the feed ration significantly.

 

After that, if you would still like to calculate it out to the gnat's eyelash, we can charge onward. :yiipchick

 

Here is a nicely written article, in understandable language, which explains the issues that you mention:

 

http://nilesanimalhospital.com/files/2012/05/Calcium-Phosphorus-and-Vitamin-D3-Imbalances.pdf

 

Worth noting -- the oils in seeds and grains may bind calcium in the intestine, preventing it from being used in the body.  So that's something to read carefully and think about.

 

Chocolate crickets are actually taste. Same with meat bird feed, laying hen feed, and mealworms. Yes I've tried all of the above and there not that bad. The mealworms and crickets you just have to not think about it and you'll be fine. Meat bird feed and laying hen feed is little dry, make sure you have water or something to wash it down, just saying.

 

 Also to add on top of seed coat and grains is whole grains can be difficult to digest. Plant seeds contain cellulose, acids and micro bacteria that live in the cecal can't break down completely. That's why it's important that birds have grit in the gizzard to crack open the seed coat to expose the nutrients in the seed or grain. Also that's why it's important to sometimes crack it open for them.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by KsKingBee View Post
 

 

Wow, you guys are all over this!  and I thought I was over it...

 

Ok, we shall noodle this out, but first I will get some good numbers.

 

All my breeding pens have broken egg shells (chicken) on the ground, I assume that if they needed more that they would clean that up.  I will check the labels again today for the calcium content of each of the additives in my mash and weigh the dry ingredients.  Some of the ingredients will have no listings on the label like the crimped milo or the whole oats.  The Alfalfa, Game Bird Breeder/Starter, and Catfish food will.  We won't worry about the mackerel, bananas, or peanuts as they are not an everyday staple.

 

Thanks again, I just don't want to cause some type of internal problem by overloading them up with too much of anything.

 

If they need the calcium they will clean it up. Well right now I'm in a college Animal Science class and we just had a test about how to make rations for a certain animal in a certain stage in life, mixing 3 or more feeds to achieve a certain % of nutrition for a certain weight of feed, and then figuring out the price. It's a lengthy process. I'll post a video teaching you all how to do a Pearson square. I could do it without the square but it's easy to get lost without it.

post #16 of 17
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Birdrain92 View Post

 

 

If they need the calcium they will clean it up. Well right now I'm in a college Animal Science class and we just had a test about how to make rations for a certain animal in a certain stage in life, mixing 3 or more feeds to achieve a certain % of nutrition for a certain weight of feed, and then figuring out the price. It's a lengthy process. I'll post a video teaching you all how to do a Pearson square. I could do it without the square but it's easy to get lost without it.

 

Not cleaning up the shells on the ground is part of what made me think that they were not in need of extra calcium.  Knowing that peas only need around 1 1/2% calcium in their feed and that according to my calculations I am at or just above that level.  

 

I think it was Claude that posted a chart on the Pearson square a week or so ago on FB.  It was a bit confusing, but it didn't matter to me as I already understand how to do it in my own way.  Please post the video when you find it.

NPIP # KS-412

Black Copper Marans, Easter Eggers, Mutts, ducks, and PEAFOWL!!!  India Blue, IB White Eye, IB Pied WE split Cameo, IB Silver Pied, IBBS, IBBS split Cameo, IBBS Pied, IBBS WE, Cameo, CBS (Oaten), Cameo Pied, CPWE, CSP, and Purple Black Shoulder. African Gray Parrots, a bunch of those dang guineas.  Oh, and honeybees, around 200 hives.  And two Great Pyrenees puppies.

Reply
NPIP # KS-412

Black Copper Marans, Easter Eggers, Mutts, ducks, and PEAFOWL!!!  India Blue, IB White Eye, IB Pied WE split Cameo, IB Silver Pied, IBBS, IBBS split Cameo, IBBS Pied, IBBS WE, Cameo, CBS (Oaten), Cameo Pied, CPWE, CSP, and Purple Black Shoulder. African Gray Parrots, a bunch of those dang guineas.  Oh, and honeybees, around 200 hives.  And two Great Pyrenees puppies.

Reply
post #17 of 17

I was just going to make one

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