Guard dogs

lgdnevada said:

What many others have also not taken into consideration here is the size and type of the non-LGD dogs they have 'guarding' their fowl.  Perhaps all they have to worry about is a possum, raccoons and a fox.  In other words, small predators that can be taken on by such small non LGD breeds.

On commercial livestock operations out West here, that is not the case.

Out here in NV where sheep are run in the 1000's, and cattle in the 10,000's, we have lion, bear, wolves, feral dog packs, coyote packs, fox, birds of prey etc., a small 40 -70 pound dog (let me say, anything under 100 pounds), is no match for keeping large predators from livestock and poultry.  Also, coyotes work it.  Do you know how?  They will send a solo coyote out as a decoy to draw the one LGD away from it's flock or herd.  Then the rest of the coyote pack comes in from the other side and wipes out your livestock, packs off a lamb, chickens, etc.  That is why savvy operators always run several LGDs.  One is never enough.  They cannot be everywhere at once.  But again this is on large ranches and farms, too.  But fact remains: a small dog is no match for this type of predator and never will be.  A pit bull grabs one coyote and hangs on while the rest come in and eviscerate him or break legs.  That's life out here in the "Big Nasty".

That is why LGD breeds are large. Some are huge, over 200 pounds.  They HAVE to be.  A sheltie or even a lab is no match for a pack of coyotes or a bear or a wolf.  That is where the rubber meets the road and where your theories all really get tested in the end.  And ultimately, where many people advocating the use of small non LGD breeds will ultimately perhaps find out what I am saying, is true.

Finally, and this needs to be said, I'm trying to be as diplomatic here as I can be.  I'm no chicken expert and never will be - and I'd defer to someone who knows more about chickens than I do were I to be doing research on a chicken subject.  I'd hardly be coming in here with a chip on my shoulder, arguing with someone who is more savvy about a chicken ailment than I am.  Well….?  It works both ways.  My expertise is in LGDs, period.  I doubt many others on this forum have the experience I have had with them, and so I am somewhat affronted but not surprised by the hostile way everyone is reacting to my posts about LGDs.  Its like no one can tell you  - you already know it all.  Hmmmm….?

I'll leave it at that.  I posted over in the Predators forum links to my blog and there is a ton of good info on it I hope people will read in order to learn more about using LGDs.  That's all I care about, teaching folks how to understand and use these dogs properly.  Don't hate me for it!

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Apparently you are not familiar with the Plott Hounds?

One dog will run a bear or mountain lion up a tree! If they choose to come back down to fight, the fight is on! The Plott will not back down, some have died of course, nothing in life is garunteed ... but, usually one of three things happens ... one of them is killed, the critter climbs back up in the tree, or it runs away with the dog(s) chasing it, until it climbs another tree ... usually the latter is what happens ...

Lots of hunters will of course run a pack of dogs, like you said more than one is helpful, but over the miles of running, the pack can get seperated too ... eventually they all end up at the tree, and with more than just the one Plott that put it up the tree, down there ... usually ... they will stay put ...

The standard calls for males to be no more than 75 pounds by the way ...

In AZ most of our coyotes are smallish (30-35 pounds) and usually are in pairs, unless they have their young with them ...

I really want to thank those obstinate people in this forum (most of whom I have blocked by now; dang, I love that feature - tee hee) perpetually arguing over what constitutes a real, recognized LGD breed or not. Your posts have given me plenty of fodder to blog about….!

jywel417 said:

I would venture to say most people on here don't have a real need for a true LGD. Unless you literally want a dog that stays with your livestock 24/7, then look into a LGD from proven LGD breeding lines.

As far as having your pets co exist peacefully with your flock, that depends on the individual dog AND training. An adult, pet LGD that has never been around chickens or livestock isn't any more likely to guard them or be safe around them than your **average** dog.

Now some dogs will be more likely to cause problems, high drive terriers (for example) would be hard pressed to be safe around small, erratically moving birds. Most dogs with proper training will be safe around your flock under supervision. You just have to decide if you want to put the time into training and risk the possibility of injuring your flock of something goes wrong.

Personally I have 4 Dobermans. They are ALL fantastic farm dogs in their own right. My 8 year old male show dog and my 2 year old female show dog are great ratters. My male has brought me as many as 15 rats in a 10 minute time frame when we went to a friend's farm that was overrun with rats. While he is awesome with people and dogs of all sizes, he is NOT cat, small rodent, avian, or livestock safe. But he is impeccably trained so under supervision, it isn't a problem. My 2 year old female (I show dogs btw so I am trying to remember to say female and not b**** but it is hard, so please excuse me if I slip up) is a great ratter but was on the road with a professional handler for a year training for and attaining her AKC Championship, so her training is extremely lacking right now, so she is on leash around any new animals right now until I can fully assess where she is at after being gone a year and getting her training under control.

My 4 year old retired show girl is safe around anything. She did not inherit her father's drive for hunting ANYTHING except squirrels. My 11 year old rescue is safe around EVERYTHING. She has raised anything from kittens, chickens, pet birds, squirrels, opossums, deer, you name it.

I think everyone should read the blog being referenced because we can **all** benefit from it (either by learning something new or seeing something we have known from another standpoint). That being said I would never leave any animal around my livestock (no matter what breed or training) without knowing that **something** could go wrong because at the end of the day, they are animals. I also do not condone leaving small children alone with any animals unsupervised (livestock or pets) for the same reason. They are animals and most children can not, or just don't bother, reading signals well.

At the end of the day you must remember they are animals, they have instincts, and instinct will always trump training if pushed to a certain point

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Good to see other people who have Dobbie's on the farm. Our rescue girl sounds just like your rescue girl. The breed is so amazing, some of the things they go through and snap right back into the most loving caring dogs ever. Our ***** (pardon we also use to breed Dobbies for show way back when I was a wee tot too xD) was a rescue from a puppy mill. They bred her possibly under a year old since she was only a year when the rescue got her and puppies had clearly just been weaned from her. They don't know about where the pups were as Doberman rescue wasn't given any puppies from the rescue. She was one of 26 Dobbies at the mill. We took her to the Renaissance Festival in MN last year having only had her about 3 months at the time and we took her on pet day the most chaotic day. She was great around chickens, sheep, goats, even rabbits which we thought she would want to rip apart. She had puppies jumping on her, kids jumping on her, and larger dogs jumping on her and she just wagged her tail the whole time. If ever you needed a place to test a dog this was the place and she passed with flying colors. The only animal she doesn't like is our cat Dovah but I think that is because Dovah torments everyone in the house including Avalon. Ava wants to cuddle him but then he does something like randomly attacks her and runs off and she gets so miffed about it. She is also afraid of the baby chicks but the grown up silkies she likes. I wonder if the high pitch peeps reminds her of her puppies and makes her nervous. I know we can't give her squeaky toys because she will panic and start searching the house. We think she assumes it's puppies crying and is desperately trying to find them.

Once our Bichon gets a little older we are getting another dog from Doberman Rescue and from Mary who runs it. She has a big farm all her dobbies run on and her foster dogs. She has horses and chickens like we do and she does well to train every foster dog to to smart and well behaved around the chickens. At any given moment she has 5 of her own dogs and up to 2 foster dogs and her 'packs' have never killed any of her chickens. This is our second dog from her foster care now and we love how well trained she has them in the time she fosters. Our last girl from her was fantastic around horses and we trained her to herd our miniature horses to help her keep weight off since she had a thyroid issue and could easily become obsess if she didn't exercise. She was more than happy to herd the mini's and we even had her trained to push them over the miniature horse jumps before she passed away. Too young, she had a heart attack only at 5 years old...poor breeding on her part, possibly was a puppy mill pup but her original owner abandoned her in the cities tied to a light post in the middle of summer with no water no shade. Hoping to have Avalon up to snuff with her one day but she is still a puppy herself.

Also we have baby bunnies right now and Avalon saw one in the dog yard, didn't bite it or anything, went over to it with a wagging tail (She's all natural by the way, full tail and all) and sniffed it. She just stood there nose bumping it until I went to go see what it was, I thought it was hurt but nope. Just frightened and I don't think it was old enough to know to run away from things yet so I scooted it under the fence and back into the woods with my foot. She never once cared to chase it, just curious about what strange fluffy thing was in her poop yard xD It's just like her to do that, she will bark at a squirrel but once they are sitting on her fence she's like "YOU ARE NOW MY FRIEND YES?" What a lovable little goober.



And her Bichon brother who is my little flock guardian.



Also my neighbor has her Doberman Zander and German Shepard Alpha as full time guardian's over her sheep and chickens. They are outside until the sheep and chickens are put away and night and are let out when the barn door opens. She had used GS and Dobbies almost longer than we have with great results.

The OP of this thread has received lots of answers and the staff feel this has now run its course.

Thank you all for your participation in this thread. It is now locked.


BYC Staff.