⠀ Nutritional loss of fermented feeds. Purina rep insight appreciated.

When feed is allowed to ferment there has got to be some overall loss of nutritional value. The process of fermentation consumes energy and what is remaining has got to be less than what the non fermented feed had at the beginning. If that not true than than a perpetual motion machine has been discovered.

What part of our feed dollar is being spent to feed yeasts.

Following this thread

Hey there - I am by no means a chicken expert but I have a background in biology and looked into some peer-reviewed published research because I was curious about this myself as I start to prepare for my first flock.


TLDR version: there is good evidence that feeding fermented foods has health benefits and no evidence of harm done by the feeding (with one minor report listed in the 3rd article below). I will definitely be fermenting feed for my chickens, with the caveat that home fermentation is a less controlled process than the methods used in the scientific articles below, and I can't state with 100% confidence that home fermentation doesn't open you up to unforeseen problems.

Here's what I found, there's more but you can get the point from these few:

Effects of fermented cottonseed meal on the growth performance, gastrointestinal microflora population and small intestinal morphology in broiler chickens. (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28398088?dopt=Abstract)

This abstract reports that the fermented diet had decreased fiber and increased protein compared to dry diet. Fermented diet caused significant increase in growth rate in broiler chickens compared to dry diet. There was less abdominal fat in the bodies of the chickens fed fermented diet. Chickens on fermented diet had lower levels of coliform bacteris (such as E. coli) and higher amounts of digestive surface area in the intestine (better growth of intestinal villi)
Effect of feeding silages or carrots as supplements to laying hens on production performance, nutrient digestibility, gut structure, gut microflora and feather pecking behaviour. (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17701499?dopt=Abstract)

This abstract supplemented chickens with different types of silage (fermented plants/grains that have been sotred in a silo), so the fermenging process is a bit different than the small-scale fermenting usually done by members of this forum. However, it seems that supplementing with fermented foods decreases mortality, decreased pecking behavior, and resulted in overall better plumage. Article concludes that feeding fermented foods improves welfare of the chickens.

Fermented feed for laying hens: effects on egg production, egg quality, plumage condition and composition and activity of the intestinal microflora. (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19373724?dopt=Abstract)


This abstract fed chickens wet fermented food. The fermented food had high amounts of lactic acid and lactic acid bacteria, and about 1/4 the dietary sugar of dry food. Chickens fed fermented diet ate less, pooped less, and produced heavier eggs with thicker shells after being on the diet for 5-6 months. On the down side, chickens fed fermented foods had an adjustment period and started laying a little later than the control group, so the lifetime production of egg mass was about equal between the 2 groups. Fermented food increased acidity of the digestive tract, which provides protection against infection by Salmonella and Campylobacter. The article concludes that there are health and nutritional benefits to fermented diet but recommends starting the diet early in life so the chickens don't go through an adjustment period that negatively impacts the laying cycle. The article also mentions an increase in pecking in their experimental chickens, which is the opposite of the findings of the first article. They attribute this to the decreased palatability of the food when fermented.

[Campylobacter and Salmonella control in chickens and the role of fermented food]. (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15185618?dopt=Abstract)

This one is simple. Feeding fermented foods significantly reduces the spread of Salmonella and Camplyobacter between chickens, but it does not provide 100% protection against infection.

Testing the efficacy of fermented wheat germ extract against Mycoplasma gallisepticum infection of chickens (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15554060?dopt=Abstract)

Another simple one: Feeding fermented wheat germ extract helps chickens fight infection with mycoplasma, which causes a nasty respiratory disease in chickens.

Heya, I replied to your question but since I'm a newbie and my response contained links to outside web pages, my post went to moderation . Hopefully it will clear in a couple of days.

doublenerds said:

Heya, I replied to your question but since I'm a newbie and my response contained links to outside web pages, my post went to moderation . Hopefully it will clear in a couple of days.

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It came through. Thank you very much!

doublenerds said:

Heya, I replied to your question but since I'm a newbie and my response contained links to outside web pages, my post went to moderation . Hopefully it will clear in a couple of days.

Click to expand...

Well I'm a math nerd and an old school vocational ag teacher. I have not read your links yet and I surely will. my passion for learning is unquenchable. I appreciate your efforts and they will not be wasted. I do not dismiss the health benefits of feeding fermented feeds. I understand how this works with ruminant animals however chickens are not ruminants. It will take me a bit of time to get through the links you provided. I am looking forward to an insightful dialogue.

Thanks

Frank

I find it ironic that the Purina forum feed expert has had nothing to contribute.

Fairview01 said:

When feed is allowed to ferment there has got to be some overall loss of nutritional value. The process of fermentation consumes energy and what is remaining has got to be less than what the non fermented feed had at the beginning. If that not true than than a perpetual motion machine has been discovered.

What part of our feed dollar is being spent to feed yeasts.

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Hi Fairview01,

When feed is fermented, it is going to lose some of its nutritional value. In order for yeast to grow and start the fermentation process, they have to be fed. Yeasts are using the sugars in the feed as their energy source. The original feed source now has less nutrition and the products of fermentation also have less nutrition than the original feed source. It is not perpetual motion, there is always some energy lost in the process – carbon dioxide, heat, waste etc. You might ask, why would I take a feed product that has been formulated to contain the nutrients necessary for your birds to grow or lay eggs and then ferment that feed? You are decreasing the nutrition in the feed and replacing it with a lower plane of nutrition.

DrPatrickBiggs said:

Hi Fairview01,

When feed is fermented, it is going to lose some of its nutritional value. In order for yeast to grow and start the fermentation process, they have to be fed. Yeasts are using the sugars in the feed as their energy source. The original feed source now has less nutrition and the products of fermentation also have less nutrition than the original feed source. It is not perpetual motion, there is always some energy lost in the process – carbon dioxide, heat, waste etc. You might ask, why would I take a feed product that has been formulated to contain the nutrients necessary for your birds to grow or lay eggs and then ferment that feed? You are decreasing the nutrition in the feed and replacing it with a lower plane of nutrition.

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I have a long history with Purina feeds. In the 90s your he Purina rabbit feed paved the way for my 3 daughters to become some of the most successful ARBA showers in the state with a BOS at the TX State Fair. Purina feeds are where it happens for my stock since then.

I was hoping that Purina had actually performed some sort of laboratory analysis of nutritional loss that occurs with the fermentation process and could post numbers. I figure the losses would be significantly higher for us in uncontrolled environments and wild yeast and bacteria strains not to ention feeds that have gone beyond fermentation and become sour. I think the enthusiasm for fermented feeds would wane once it is realized the combined dollar loss due to nutritional loss AND the additional feed requirements to make up for that loss.

I will say for the first 3 days I feed wet starter and 1 day of DIY electrolyte water of sugar, NaCl and KCl to all newly hatched chicks. At first week temps that starter has got to be fermented by the second day. Subjective observations is that chick growth rate is phenomenal compared to dry starter. I got behind in my work and received a shipment of broiler chicks without time to clean the brooder. The older chicks were moved to the coop and the hatchlings were unceramoniously poured (literally) into a poo contaminated brooder and fed the remaining dry starter from the older evicted ones. Same phenomenal growth rates so far.

So there are 2 variables in play in this very primitive experiment. Yeasts with bacteria and moisture. I had always thought newly hatched chicks were water stressed therefore the wet starter. In the back of mind I was curious about the benefits of the establishment of the proper GI flora. The second batch did not have the benefit of wet starter but were free to peck at the previous inhabitants poo and they are growing like weeds also. For my next batch of chicks which won't be until fall, the brooder will have been disinfected and sannatized and when I put the new chicks in it I' ll also include some coop litter and fresh droppings from the adults and see what happens. I think it is the establishment of the GI flora that is at work here.

Actually you are very wrong and didn't learn a thing in biology class. Fermenting feed causes a bloom of yeast and beneficial bacteria that increase in number by feeding on the "sugar" and breaking down the feed. While doing this they are increasing the amount of protein and other nutrients created by their growth. An example would be fungi growing on a "rotting" log. The log itself is being broken down (cellulose fibers and starches) but the fungi increase in size and number and hence increase the protein and other nutrients. The protein and nutrients produced by fermentation are of a type that are more readily absorbed/digested by the chicken allowing for higher percentage of nutrient absorption vs waste. A chicken digests approximately 25% of the mass of fresh grains, whereas they digest 85%(+) % of that same feed when fermented.