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A lot of folks dont think chickens have emotions... - Page 9

post #81 of 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by elderoo 

I am on the "wait and see side" of the fence. No one has yet proven anything, only having made a lot of well-worded and/or psuedoscientific statements.
The whole "chickens have 'chickeny emotions' which we can't understand (degree of emotion)," argument is open - I feel the jury is still out on that popularly vague, New Age fall-back. It's just like UFO's: I've never been in one, or even seen one, but I admit that the commonly held logic behind their existence has merit. Until one lands on my lawn, though, that is how it must remain.


Your statement about "no one having proven anything" is accurate to a fault; indeed no one can prove the existence or nonexistence of anything in the universe.
Any argument posed with the intent of proving or disproving anything, must rely on a set of assumed variables that are mutually or seemingly mutually understood as "true"

"I think therefore I am"
It's cliché' and yet, for your argument it is appropriate to point out that the only thing knowable is, ones own consciousness, anything else is subject to debate.

The question is, how far do we go in our attempt to determine, for our own reality, that which we accept as true and that which we decide to reject.

Since nothing can truly be known, we are left with the evidence that seems to exist within the physical universe we live.

If we assume that the universe that we perceive is in fact true, then it follows that we can not pick and choose to discard that which appears to be true when it serves our own purpose.

The majority of the evidence, that can be observed, suggests that chickens show emotions, to whatever extent is irrelevant.
If we are to assume that chickens exist, and we know that there is similar functionality within the brains of both chickens and humans, then it stands to reason that chickens would have emotions.

However, I can not prove the existence of chicken emotions, any more then I can prove the existence of you, and therefore, I shall have to accept that both exist or resign myself to a universe that cannot be accepted, for that which my perception of it confers to me.

Have a nice day.

post #82 of 94

This goes to the core, then, doesn't it?. We are feeling guilty for being dominant and dread their supposed retribution, so we try to compensate by giving them things we cannot prove exist. Now THAT is an entire pantheon of emotion - ours, not theirs. Chickens dont plot such things, we merely worry that they may.
In the end, you either fervently want them to have emotions or you await the proof that they do. Count me in the latter group.


Dave, Dave, Dave.  Dressing up your straw man with what was a tongue-in-cheek reference to irradiated mutant kung fu fighting chooks out for revenge?  (guess you missed the smile at the end of the paragraph, eh?).

I have heard our ol' roo-dawg spuriously flogging the rhetoric, but he does so with a forensic flourish.

Let me lay it out:  Same neurotransmitters, same basic structure (limbic system ain't called the `reptilian brain' in the `penny' press for nothing).  Chickens experience emotions, certainly not the same range as humans but they are analogous to our own if the comparitive neurochemistry fellas aren't hangin' with peers who lie for them, and if us backyard tyro's admittedly casual empirical evaluations are weighted in.

It's good to remember that we humans communicate with language (denotation pretty accurate - connotation a little iffy).  We have difficulty identifying/describing our own emotions.  Those of us who actually share our backyards with chooks harbor no illusions as to the inadequacy of the descriptions.  The only folks who fall hard into the error of anthropomorphic solipsism are those who never get closer to a chook than a disney animation or sermonettes spewed by those Whose Name Cannot Be Spoken on this site.

(next time argue the affirmative and I'll bring along the roo to kick up some straw) smile

"Say not `This is truth' but `so it seems to me to be as I now see the things I think I see' "

(from inscription over the entrance to the German Naval Officers Academy in Kiel)

Take Care,
John

post #83 of 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by ivan3 

The only folks who fall hard into the error of anthropomorphic solipsism are those who never get closer to a chook than a disney animation or sermonettes spewed by those Whose Name Cannot Be Spoken on this site.

Take Care,
John


yippiechickieNAME THEM yippiechickie
yippiechickieNAME THEM yippiechickie
yippiechickieNAME THEM yippiechickie

post #84 of 94

it stands to reason that chickens would have emotions.


And again I merely stand on my belief that they do not have what we have. They are chickens - we are not.

I used to have a hen, Hazel, who would stand around under foot until I picked her up and rubbed her back. Then she would leave and not give me the time of day thereafter. Did this mean she had emotions and was expressing some weird chickeny affection? Naaaah. She would as readily peck the flesh from my hands or merely stand there eyeing me from across the yard, with no attention being paid to me whatsoever. 

If there are some amorphous, "chickeny feelings" that we dont know about, then okay. But, so far I remain unconvinced, much as you guys are trying. Maybe I'm just a dolt?

However, if I'm to be accused of rhetoric, then let it go both ways, okay? Rhetoric makes a lovely fence, you know, to which both parties may cling. You can quote me on that, Ivan, if you like.

The most interesting thing here, to me is that I dont feel the need for victories or wins against the other side. The second most interesting thing here is how all of you feel about this issue. One day, I hope you are proven right and we'll find that chickens are our equals.

But, for now, I simply find the stance of, "I want them to have emotions, I can find logic that bolsters my desire if I look hard enough... therefore they must have them," to be specious at best.

Peace... David
"Poetry often comes in through the window of irrelevance"

 

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Peace... David
"Poetry often comes in through the window of irrelevance"

 

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post #85 of 94

Elderoo, I bet DEEP in their hearts, all your little chickie babies just LOVE you to pieces, despite your braininess and engineering-type tendencies.  (smiling).

post #86 of 94

Barg Wrote:  NAME THEM!

Great, tear the doors from the cages of the moderators, freeing them like a pack of tortured, abused, wolves; rushing, fangs bared, howling in unison for my bannination!!

I think not.

Well, I'm off to monitor Planaria as they vigorously move towards areas where higher concentrations of amphetamines or cocaine are available (some things have never changed)... smile


Edited by ivan3 - 9/27/07 at 1:22pm
post #87 of 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by ivan3 

Barg Wrote:  NAME THEM!

Great, tear the doors from the cages of the moderators, freeing them like a pack of tortured, abused, wolves; rushing, fangs bared, howling in unison for my bannination!!

I think not.


What are ya, Chicken?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ivan3 

Well, I'm off to monitor Planaria as they vigorously move towards areas where higher concentrations of amphetamines or cocaine are available (some things have never changed)... smile


Hmm, has that sort of thing actually been studied and proven?

Sounds interesting.

I can imagine a squad of police with their trained Drug sniffing planaria yelling " ok everyone seperate". lol


Edited by barg - 9/27/07 at 6:33pm
post #88 of 94

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v242/terrielacy/nerd.gif

post #89 of 94

barg wrote What are ya, chicken?

Bwaaccckkk! O.K., a roo who pines to see the world.  Gonna call up that elf to get me a ticket so I can peck with the pigeons at the base of Bonaroti's Pieta

Now I'll probably end up being sent off to the cat food factory...

Do Planaria dream of Pablo Escobar and tanks filled with ammonium nitrate? Well... that is process not well understood.

But, yes, Planaria have been tested and found to be `morally' weak...  Those drug seeking flat worms need to be chastised severely (cut up and only allowed to regenerate when they've learned their lesson!)

Have two links:  The first goes into some detail - just scroll down to the section on Evolution of the dopaminergic system  (just thought throwing in those `addict' goldfish would be a hoot).

http://www.nature.com/mp/journal/v5/n5/full/4000759a.html

The second link goes to the heart of the subject of this thread.  The specific information regarding Planaria is to be found in ref. 42.  If you have access to the Jstor system I can provide direct links.

The title of the article linked to below:  `Laughing rats and the evolutionary antecedents of human joy?'

http://www.psych.umn.edu/courses/fall06/macdonalda/psy4960/Readings/PankseppRatLaugh_P&B03.pdf


Edited by ivan3 - 9/27/07 at 7:17pm
post #90 of 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by elderoo 

Yeah, ABAC's wasn't bad...another derivitive of the 'degree of emotion' concept. Functional and simple - works for me.


Why thanks!

Quote:
Originally Posted by barg 

ABAC' you must either be a Scorpio or a diplomat, Hats off to you!


Libra and Paramedic.......Close?  gig

April

Tell me and I'll forget. Show me, and I may not remember. Involve me, and I'll understand.
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April

Tell me and I'll forget. Show me, and I may not remember. Involve me, and I'll understand.
Reply
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