Consolidated Kansas - Page 1359

HEChicken, I'm so sorry. What an awful thing to happen.

Thanks everyone.  I am moving slowly today - there is just this terrible sadness whenever I think about it.  DH is so mad he is installing cameras that will also allow us to see what is happening outside the coop and in the chicken yard right now.  We are both carrying our handguns (9mm) with us and have a .22 rifle by the backdoor too.  I'm a reasonable shot and now I want it to come back so I can deal with it.  I can't relax not knowing what it was or when it will be back but knowing it WILL be back sometime.  Right now I'm sitting looking out a window at the chicken yard so any movement will clue me in something is going on.  Half of the year we have windows open and would hear something.  Even now we sleep with windows open to let cool air in overnight. But of course this happened late afternoon - the hottest part of the day when the windows were closed and the A/C running and I think we didn't hear it because of that.

What we know:

• Something got in the yard and chased and killed them.  There was not a single feather outside of the chicken yard.  There were feathers everywhere around each kill, and the bodies were scattered literally from one end of the yard to the other - and the yard is 240 feet long.
• Two are still missing.  I don't expect to find them alive now.  I don't know if they were carried off (seems unlikely) but don't know why else they would be missing.  There are some areas with very long grass and its still possible they are in one of those pockets, dead.  They are somewhat inaccessible to me but not to the birds. 

What we don't know:

• What did this.  We are positive it was not our dogs.  They've been around poultry as long as we've had them without showing the slightest interest in chasing them (both when we are around and when we are not.  I've observed them tons of times from the window when they didn't know we were watching and even with the little 3-week-old chicks, they didn't pay any attention to them.)  Not only that, neither of them was hot, panting or sweaty like they had just spent time chasing birds.  And, when I went outside, one was lying in the shade next to the backdoor and accompanied me down to the chicken yard and the other emerged from her favorite shady place when we called her after making the discovery.
• How it got in.  We've walked the fence line multiple times.  There are no spots dug and no holes.  The "gate" is the only unfinished part of the yard.  Its on the to-do list but for now, we have a nail in a post and the end of the roll of wire gets hooked onto the nail.  I can sometimes do it one-handed but more often than not I need 2 hands.  It has occasionally come unhooked when the nail rotated around and then has gaped open wide enough for one of the birds to squeeze through.  If that had happened yesterday a dog could have squeezed through too, but when I got down there, the wire was over the nail and no animal could or would return it to that state after squeezing through.  So the entry point is still a mystery.  Unless it climbed right over the top.

Hawkeye, you mentioned the dog my dogs chased off.  You have such a great memory!  DH and I had both forgotten about that until this morning.  He had kept saying "we've never seen a single dog around here" but then I remembered that incident and said "No, remember that black shepherd that showed up here a couple of weeks ago" and as soon as I reminded him, he remembered it too.  This morning our next door neighbor came over to give us some fresh picked corn and DH asked her about the black shepherd.  She confirmed that "Molly" is the kind of dog who *might* do something like this but said she almost never leaves her property.  However we know she has been over on our property at least once so right now she is my suspect #1.

I don't believe my next-door neighbor's dogs did this because:

• Dog #1 is an 11-year-old lab who is very arthritic.  She hobbles a little when she walks, and whoever did this needed agility and speed - Sallie doesn't have either.  Also, she was trained as a pup by their old dog they had at the time, to stay on the property.  My neighbor says she never leaves and certainly I've not only never seen her off the property but never even seen her leave the immediate area of the house to use any of the rest of their acreage.
• Dog #2 is a little ankle-biter - and I know they can be devastating to livestock too - but this one is really fat and can't move very fast.  My neighbor says that dog is not as good at staying around as Sallie but I've never seen her off the property.  I told DH of the two she would be the more likely but he pointed out that as fat as she is, she wouldn't have had the stamina to do this much damage either.

Right now I'm more seriously thinking LGD.  Its been on my mind off and on ever since we went under contract to buy the house.  I had hoped that if I built a Fort Knox Coop and they were all safely in it at night, I would keep losses to a minimum, since I think of both raccoons and coyotes - the two I am most concerned about around here - as being mostly nocturnal hunters.  And, I hoped the presence of our two dogs on the property would keep stray dogs at bay.  Clearly that did not work as I would have liked.  One of my dogs alerts to any car that turns in our driveway and any person she sees around here.  I guess I kind of thought she would also alert to seeing a strange dog even if she didn't guard by chasing it off but....neither dog let us know anything was going on.  So now I'm back to thinking about an actual LGD.  DH is not excited about the idea of taking on another dependent but he also knows how much the poultry mean to me and how devastating this has been, so I think he will agree.

So I have a question for those with LGD's.  My set up is that my 10-acres is fenced all the way around but only for large livestock - horses/cattle.  I.e. goats/sheep/dogs/coyotes and anything smaller can run right through.  So - I fenced the chicken yard with 5' high welded wire fence.  I know hardware cloth is stronger but my yard is not a pen - it is 240x60 and the cost of doing that in hardware cloth was prohibitive.  Even the fencing I put up was not exactly cheap.  It is certainly good enough to keep the chickens in and - I thought - would have kept dogs out.  Anyway, if I were to get a LGD how would you see it working?  The way I see it I have two options.  Either the dog lives IN the chicken yard with the chickens (where it would have 14400 sq ft of space).  We could put our dogloo (dog igloo) in there for it to sleep in.  Or, the dog lives outside the chicken yard, wears a collar for the invisible fence and can roam the acreage as our two dogs can now.  The problem I see with the latter option is that the dog has no direct contact with the animals it is guarding, so how does it know that's what its guarding?  And it could chase away something before it got into the yard but if that something got in the yard, the LGD would have no recourse to get it out.  Okay, after thinking that all out loud, it seems obvious the LGD has to live IN the chicken yard.  Its a huge space for chickens and honestly, I think it is a decent space for a dog too but what do y'all think?

(And yes I know its better to have two LGD's.  But I fear the chicken yard isn't enough space for two dogs and that DH won't agree to TWO more dependents).

HEchicken- I am sooo sorry for your loss. That is a tragic story. I am no LGD expert but having two I can tell you what I have learned so far. My dogs are not bonded to my chickens, not even the pup that I raised with them. I think it is possible to bond a dog to chickens and fowl but harder than getting them bonded to other livestock like goats, horses, cattle etc. BUT my dogs are very bonded to the property and because the chickens are part of the property they feel that they need to protect them too. I would never leave them in the chicken pen permanently. These dogs need to roam. We have 8 acres and it feels small for our two LGDs sometimes. I wish the neighbor would sale us the land behind us so we would have 15 acres total. They are not happy being penned up at all, they need to move around and patrol it is in my opinion part of how they work. If they can't get out of the pen they can't keep predators off your property. I have our dogs set up with a home base pen that is about 50 feet away from the chickens and they have dog houses, water and that is where they are fed. They tend to stick pretty close to the chicken pen that way and also patrol the back pastures. If we didn't have them invisibly fenced they would patrol the woods across the street and the neighbors cattle pastures too but we can't risk Molly getting hit by a car. (She has an insatiable desire to chase farm equipment and it is the number one cause of death to LGD)

This is just my opinion, I think a dog penned with chickens all the time is going to get bored out of its mind and start doing naughty things. These dogs work and patrol all night and parts of the day if needed. They bark A LOT!!  Get an adult if you can, it is so much easier than a puppy. The puppy is driving me crazy, she is still learning that we don't pick chickens up by the tail and carry them around!!!! 

I am so sorry for your loss, it is so hard to lose them like that. 

HeChicken, I'm so sorry about your birds, what a sad loss, my heart goes out to you. I would highly recommend a Great Pyrenees for an LGD, many of us on this board have them & they are great dogs. If you get a pup they will bond to what you have & they will know what they're supposed to watch. Yes, you have to go through the normal puppy stuff, but once they get through that they're just awesome. Mine are going on 9 months old now & they're doing a great job watching over things here. They don't let anything & I mean anything in here that doesn't belong. They seem to know the difference between the wild birds & my birds because as you know I have the turkeys & they know those belong here but they won't let wild turkeys in here. I hear them gobbling on the other side of our fence & they will bark at them & not let them come over. They know my rabbits from wild ones too, they don't let wild rabbits in here either. They lay outside of my chicken run at night & in the daytime are often seen laying under the rabbit hutches because it's shady there. We don't have fences all around our property, we just have barbed wire fence along part of it. Some of our fence got torn down when they did road work at the other end of our property, but the dogs don't usually go down there much anyway because they stay up here where the birds & rabbits are mostly. We don't keep the gate shut down at the road either, it's too much of a hassle to open & shut it. They're pretty good most of the time at staying where they're supposed to be. I do know they go next door to get in the trash dump on the hill there & bring me home goodies for the yard, but that's just kind of natural for GPs to carry things around. The people moved out of there & left a trashed trailer & a pile of trash that had been accumulating for years. The lady that owns the place doesn't care, so it's a mess. But other than that, these dogs have been pretty good about being here. Lily is more of a people dog & likes to watch over us I think as well as the birds & animals & Jasmine is more reserved & is the lead LGD here. She is the first to go after something that is intruding & then Lily follows as back-up. You would definitely not be sorry if you got one of these dogs. I can give the information about the breeder I got mine from if you're interested, she is an awesome person & had been raising them for a lot of years now. She is getting ready to have surgery the 10th of this month though, so if you're inclined to get one I would contact her ASAP.

Well the little peachick is still hanging in there today. It is walking up & down the pen, I can't imagine where it is getting that energy considering it hasn't eaten much in days. The other two don't quite know what to think of it being so hyper because they aren't, they're more laid back. I haven't shown them to my DH yet, he doesn't seem in the best of moods today for some reason. I would think he would be glad to have a day off, but maybe he's happier working I don't know. I'll find a time later today to show him his surprise & see what his reaction is. The turkeys seem very happy in their new pen with so much more room. I got tickled today when I walked into their pen to feed them. They aren't used to me being able to walk in with them & the little one I know to be a tom now walked over & puffed all up & displayed like he was threatening me, it was so funny because he's not big enough to be a big threat yet. He was protecting the others though & that was cute.

HeChicken. My heart breaks for your loss :(  I really do hope you find out what did that!  I can't imaging what kind of state I'd be in if I came home to that!

Trish - I'm glad to hear that the peafowl is still hanging on! Maybe the others did show him/her how to eat a bit. It's wonderful that they accepted it right away!

Heather, I would definitely recommend a Great Pyrenees. My dogs are bonded to the birds and the property. They have a certain distance they watch and will go after anything that comes in their circle. An ideal situation would be to live in the middle of your acreage I think. I have no fence but they seem to know where to patrol. When my male was younger he used to get carried away following any slow moving vehicle. He doesn't do that any more thank goodness. They are sweet and lovable pets but I know at least my female would tear into any one that tried to harm me too.

I think I would recommend a started pup. You want one that is fairly young so it can bond to you and the property,but you don't want it so young that you have to go through too many months of puppy stage. If you could find one that is between 4-9 months old I think you would be alright.  Also since you have other dogs it needs to be young enough it won't see them as a threat. That is unless you got one as easy going as Josie female was. She is a one in a million rare Pyrenees. People often get them and need to rehome them because they live in town or have to move. I would definitely watch craigslist.

They actually don't eat as much as a lot of large dogs. A lot depends on how many predators are around, how hard they are working, and what the weather is.

I had a good last 24 hours or so. I sold 25 guineas. Then this morning I sold 120 ducklings. I still have about 50 of them left. The guy couldn't get any more money out of the ATM or he would have taken the rest of them.

Then Karen came and brought me some more beautiful chickens. We had a good visit although I probably cooked her in the heat. I am a terrible hostess. Thank you sweet lady.

Since then I have just moved the new birds to a bigger pen and been researching electric poultry netting. The kind I want is back ordered.

I've been playing with my turkey poults. They're so sweet. I've been working so hard lately it was nice to just chill for a while. I need to get busy but after all it is a holiday!

Update: It was a fox and I got him!  Will fill in the details later - need to go clean up now.

Quote:

Originally Posted by HEChicken 

Update: It was a fox and I got him!  Will fill in the details later - need to go clean up now.

Good.  Way to go.

Hechicken- Good job! I am surprised a fox would kill like that and not eat??? Bizarre.  I have seen several LGDs on craigslist lately, I have been looking for a friend who is still trying to convince her DH that it is a good idea. Maybe I am lucky but Molly has just been a gem of a dog for us. She just moved right in and took over babysitting for me! She was not initially receptive to our dogs but I spent some time with them and she is better. She still gets snarky with my heeler sometimes but he is usually asking for it! I wish I had waited and gotten another adult dog, the nonsense with the puppy sometimes is aggravating but she is finally starting to work at night so that makes me feel like we are heading in the right direction. I personally think I would have done better with an adult because I have NO patience for puppy nonsense what so ever and I get tired of having to be out there watching her anytime I let the birds out. She is only 6 months old and full of energy and the chickens are often the target of that excess energy. She has really bonded to our horses and spends a lot of time in the pasture with them which I like because there are a lot of coyotes that direction so if they came in she would bark at them from that vantage point while Molly takes up the front end of the property. I will be on the lookout for a dog and let you know if I see anything. There was someone up here that had 3/4 Pyr 1/4 anatolian shepherd puppies that were already 4 months old and working with their parents...