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Sex- linked Information - Page 64

post #631 of 1160
Quote:
Originally Posted by LAFreewayChickens View Post

I would say I did misunderstand. So gold is incompletely dominant, like black/blue/splash? (But only in males, since females only get one gene). I thought the males from a red sexlink cross were silver, but now I understand. The are "golden" (but not "gold").

 

Then I've hatched "golden columbian" males when I've crossed my Cream Legbar roo with a Delaware hen, (although I've sold them before any gold started leaking through). I have two of the little buggers in my brooder right now.

 

see Tim´s response on post 630. 

post #632 of 1160
Tim I certainly appreciate your input, anecdotal or not.

I’ve always assumed the SS over BA male was split for extended black/wheaten because I think I need pure wheaten along with either pure or split mahogany and columbia to get the SS father’s basic color/pattern. The mottling is recessive and not part of this conversation. He is definitely split for silver/gold. I hatched four males from this cross. Two had the gold that I show in the photo and two had the same general pattern of leakage but it was dark red. I’d always assumed that the rooster was split for mahogany to cause that, but I’m not sure now from what you are saying. I think what you are saying is that the color of that leakage is “typically” a straw or white color, with the split for silver gold having influence on that, but the straw/dark red difference could be from something other than mahogany? I’m not sure what effect columbia might have. I don’t think it would have any influence on the straw or dark red color of the leakage but maybe it would have an effect on how much leakage there was to start with?

I guess some things I think I know. The genes in Henk’s calculator are only a few of them and are pretty basic. I think there are other permutations of many of those genes that he does not show. There are a lot of other documented and undocumented genes that affect color and pattern. How any gene is expressed depends on what other genes are present. Some are more dominant than others, but about any of them can be altered by something else. Melanizers and diluters can be pretty sneaky. I also don’t think any chicken is totally pure in all the genes that affect color and pattern. There are just too many possible permutations of documented and undocumented genes. That’s why some unexpected things can happen. I could be totally off in any of this.

I’ve seen reference to dominant and recessive wheaten. Is that what you are referring to by your “light wheaten”, recessive instead of dominant wheaten?

I’ve hatched some barnyard mix hens like your silver with red leakage female. Her ancestry was SS, Delaware, and possibly Black Australorp. I was wondering how a silver hen could have that red leakage, even with mahogany present. Your explanation of autosomal red makes sense. The mahogany just sets what tone of red.

I’m a structural engineer that designed, built, and installed some pretty complicated structures, the joints and connections always being the complicated parts. But chicken color and pattern genetics just makes my head spin.

Freedom is not the right to do what we want, but what we ought....Abraham Lincoln (Freedom carries responsibility)

The spirit of liberty is the spirit which is not too sure that it is right.....Judge Learned Hand  (The more sure your are that your way is the only right way, the more likely you are wrong.)

 

http://www.backyardchickens.com/a/how-much-room-do-chickens-need

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Freedom is not the right to do what we want, but what we ought....Abraham Lincoln (Freedom carries responsibility)

The spirit of liberty is the spirit which is not too sure that it is right.....Judge Learned Hand  (The more sure your are that your way is the only right way, the more likely you are wrong.)

 

http://www.backyardchickens.com/a/how-much-room-do-chickens-need

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post #633 of 1160
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ridgerunner View Post

Tim I certainly appreciate your input, anecdotal or not.

I’ve always assumed the SS over BA male was split for extended black/wheaten because I think I need pure wheaten along with either pure or split mahogany and columbia to get the SS father’s basic color/pattern. The mottling is recessive and not part of this conversation. He is definitely split for silver/gold. I hatched four males from this cross. Two had the gold that I show in the photo and two had the same general pattern of leakage but it was dark red. I’d always assumed that the rooster was split for mahogany to cause that, but I’m not sure now from what you are saying. I think what you are saying is that the color of that leakage is “typically” a straw or white color, with the split for silver gold having influence on that, but the straw/dark red difference could be from something other than mahogany?
yes mahogany plus autosomal red gives you a darker red color.  The more red enhancers you have the darker the red color. As of now, I believe there is a dominant autosomal red and a recessive autosomal red. That is not gospel and is only a hypothesis i have at this time. This is what I have seen in my birds but my numbers are too small to really draw a conclusion. Just anecdotal again. Anybody reading this- please do not quote me on this. Not enough data to support what I said. 
I’m not sure what effect columbia might have. I don’t think it would have any influence on the straw or dark red color of the leakage but maybe it would have an effect on how much leakage there was to start with?
Columbian should have an effect upon the depth of the red color. This is evident in the buff color found in gold columbian birds. Columbian and dark brown attempt to turn off the addition of black to certain areas of a birds body; what is left is a shade of red color in gold birds. It controls the black but not the red to the same degree. I have not read any research concerning the mechanism (biochemistry) so will have to leave it at that.  

I guess some things I think I know. The genes in Henk’s calculator are only a few of them and are pretty basic. I think there are other permutations of many of those genes that he does not show. There are a lot of other documented and undocumented genes that affect color and pattern. How any gene is expressed depends on what other genes are present. Some are more dominant than others, but about any of them can be altered by something else. Melanizers and diluters can be pretty sneaky. I also don’t think any chicken is totally pure in all the genes that affect color and pattern. There are just too many possible permutations of documented and undocumented genes. That’s why some unexpected things can happen. I could be totally off in any of this.
No not off, I think you understand that chicken genetics is not always cut and dry. Lots of things to try and understand. One has to keep an open mind

I’ve seen reference to dominant and recessive wheaten. Is that what you are referring to by your “light wheaten”, recessive instead of dominant wheaten?
No, light wheaten (dominant wheaten) is in many breeds while dark wheaten ( recessive wheaten) is found in Salmon faverolles and many game birds: Cornish, cubalaya etc. Kimball did some work that I analyzed and he decided the dark wheaten fowl carry a gene that causes the darker color. His work indicated there is a dominant gene that makes the difference between light and dark wheaten. Others believe the difference is controlled by a promoter linked very close and up stream from the wheaten allele. Kimball had the data to make a case for another gene and others may be correct also. 

I’ve hatched some barnyard mix hens like your silver with red leakage female. Her ancestry was SS, Delaware, and possibly Black Australorp. I was wondering how a silver hen could have that red leakage, even with mahogany present. Your explanation of autosomal red makes sense. The mahogany just sets what tone of red.
From the research, this is what I have determined. When dealing with light wheaten ( dominant wheaten), you have to remember this - the wheaten allele makes red color even in a silver female ( look at a salmon faverolle). If you add additional genes that accent the red ( mahogany,autosomal red), you get the darker red colors in wheaten females. In order to eliminate the red color in silver light wheaten females and males, there must be some type of inhibitor that stops the production of red pigment. I believe the cream gene or other undocumented red inhibitors could do this. This gene would have to interfere with the cellular function of the wheaten allele or inhibit the production of tyrosinase- that would be the C locus. There are other possibilities and the subject is very complicated. 


I’m a structural engineer that designed, built, and installed some pretty complicated structures, the joints and connections always being the complicated parts. But chicken color and pattern genetics just makes my head spin.
All that engineering stuff would make my head spin. I did not like calculus and i am not fond of math ( I did enjoy geometry). 




 

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post #634 of 1160

Not sure if you are still replying to this posting, but I have a question about the 2nd chart covering Black sex-linked crosses.

 

is the simplest way to read it that anything on the left (Groups 1-5) can be crossed with the 4 female breeds shown at the right?

 

my confusion is that the left side is has the vertical divider...i am assuming that they are all males.

 

As an example:

 

Group 5 is saying that you can use any of 3 roosters: Welsummer, Silver Ameraucana, or light brown leghorn and cross them with any of the 4 pullets shown at right in the female Group 1.

 

If I am wrong in my assumption, what the chart is actually saying is that for Group 5, you use a Welsummer or Silver Ameraucana ROOSTER x a light brown leghorn HEN.

 

hopefully the question makes sense :)

 

thanks!

post #635 of 1160
You are reading it right. Any rooster on the left can be crossed with any of the hens on the right.

Freedom is not the right to do what we want, but what we ought....Abraham Lincoln (Freedom carries responsibility)

The spirit of liberty is the spirit which is not too sure that it is right.....Judge Learned Hand  (The more sure your are that your way is the only right way, the more likely you are wrong.)

 

http://www.backyardchickens.com/a/how-much-room-do-chickens-need

Reply

Freedom is not the right to do what we want, but what we ought....Abraham Lincoln (Freedom carries responsibility)

The spirit of liberty is the spirit which is not too sure that it is right.....Judge Learned Hand  (The more sure your are that your way is the only right way, the more likely you are wrong.)

 

http://www.backyardchickens.com/a/how-much-room-do-chickens-need

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post #636 of 1160

Boy I hope this thread is not dead!!

 

I am fascinated with this thread.. I have studied the first page until my eyes want to fall out... and I know there are other sex-link possibilities... blue sex links, etc...  so now here is my question...

 

This chick hatched out of a Delaware egg covered by a Blue Copper Marans roo.  I was hoping for some good meat birds, the roo has a broad chest and the hen is big and a good layer... this chick is looking barred to me.... how did that happen?  Received a comment on another thread that Delawares are considered barred??  In the chart they are silver, so how did I get this chick?  (He has the white spot on his head, too)

 

 

And what other breeds are considered "barred"?  It seems I've read that the legbars could be used in sex-link crosses?


Edited by Daloorashens - 2/12/13 at 3:14pm

DH, 3 boys under 8;  Spring 2014:  Wheaten Marans, OE and bantam cochin calico/mottled project.  Wish List: enough space for 10 more breeds

Water heaters: http://www.backyardchickens.com/a/dhens-water-homemade-water-heater

Swaps:  http://www.backyardchickens.com/a/dalooras-swap-page

 

Like kids books??  check out my web site for Usborne Books: www.x3403.myubam.com

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DH, 3 boys under 8;  Spring 2014:  Wheaten Marans, OE and bantam cochin calico/mottled project.  Wish List: enough space for 10 more breeds

Water heaters: http://www.backyardchickens.com/a/dhens-water-homemade-water-heater

Swaps:  http://www.backyardchickens.com/a/dalooras-swap-page

 

Like kids books??  check out my web site for Usborne Books: www.x3403.myubam.com

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post #637 of 1160
The Delaware is a fun one. Your Delaware hen has both silver and is barred. Her basic white body hides the barring but if you look closely at her black pattern feathers you should be able to see the barring. It’s more noticeable on the Delaware roosters because they have more black pattern feathers.

Usually Delaware are used to make red sex links using roosters pure for gold. I did that using a Speckled Sussex rooster. There is a clear difference in the yellow male chicks and the fairly dark red females. Here is a photo of the rooster from that cross. You can see the barring in the darker feathers but the white masks the barring on the body.



Your Blue Copper Maran should be pure for gold so mixed with the silver you’d think you could make red sex link chicks but it doesn’t work that way. I’m not exactly sure why but I think the birchen in the rooster gets in the way of the gold/silver expressing itself in the chick down. I think you will see it in the adult plumage where a pullet will have red where the cockerel will have more yellow or what I call rusty white, but if it doesn’t show up in the down you can’t use it. That’s if any red or yellow comes through at all. Looking at that chick I’m not sure any red or yellow will come through but I’ve been surprised in the difference in down color, juvenile plumage colors and patterns, and final adult plumage colors and patterns before.

If you look at Tadkerson’s charts for making red or black sex links, the Copper Maran, either black or blue, does not show up.

But with the Delaware hen being barred and the Blue Copper Maran rooster not being barred, any chicks you get that are barred are male and any that are not barred will be female. I’m not sure if the spot will show up properly in the down but the barring will show up in the juvenile feathers.

I don’t know all the breeds that are barred. Tadkerson lists a very few that with any of the roosters on the left of his chart can be relied on to make black sex links. It’s highly possible other breeds of hens could be used to make black sex links, but it may take a very special rooster so you can see the spot. Those breeds just might not fit on a generic chart.

You don’t even need a purebred hen or a black hen to make black sex links. You just need a hen that is barred, a rooster that is not barred, and the genetics in both to make the spot show up in the down.

Freedom is not the right to do what we want, but what we ought....Abraham Lincoln (Freedom carries responsibility)

The spirit of liberty is the spirit which is not too sure that it is right.....Judge Learned Hand  (The more sure your are that your way is the only right way, the more likely you are wrong.)

 

http://www.backyardchickens.com/a/how-much-room-do-chickens-need

Reply

Freedom is not the right to do what we want, but what we ought....Abraham Lincoln (Freedom carries responsibility)

The spirit of liberty is the spirit which is not too sure that it is right.....Judge Learned Hand  (The more sure your are that your way is the only right way, the more likely you are wrong.)

 

http://www.backyardchickens.com/a/how-much-room-do-chickens-need

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post #638 of 1160
Quote:
Originally Posted by Daloorashens View Post

Boy I hope this thread is not dead!!

I am fascinated with this thread.. I have studied the first page until my eyes want to fall out... and I know there are other sex-link possibilities... blue sex links, etc...  so now here is my question...

This chick hatched out of a Delaware egg covered by a Blue Copper Marans roo.  I was hoping for some good meat birds, the roo has a broad chest and the hen is big and a good layer... this chick is looking barred to me.... how did that happen?  Received a comment on another thread that Delawares are considered barred??  In the chart they are silver, so how did I get this chick?  (He has the white spot on his head, too)




And what other breeds are considered "barred"?  It seems I've read that the legbars could be used in sex-link crosses?
This chick looks like my babies from last year....... I have a Delaware rooster and he covered my BSL hen and my BR hen, all babies were barred male and female with the males showing rust feathers in the shoulder at about 10 weeks or so the females didn't have this and now just look almost exactly like my Barred rocks........ though they lay a darker, larger egg than my BR hen but an egg not yet as big as my Del hens............ so maybe this is a female also.........but I think by looking its a male............Kim

4 Crazy kids, 3 crazy horses,  2 lazy dogs, 2 hyper puppies, 2 fat kitties , and 33 mixed up choocks

 Missing my Bugsy Whugsy..... best Boxer in the whole world!!!

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4 Crazy kids, 3 crazy horses,  2 lazy dogs, 2 hyper puppies, 2 fat kitties , and 33 mixed up choocks

 Missing my Bugsy Whugsy..... best Boxer in the whole world!!!

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post #639 of 1160

Ridgerunner, thanks for your answer!! Very well explained...   Amazingly, I totally understood it, lol...

 

So now I have a couple other questions....  This was the only egg that hatched from that cross, it was very cold (below zero) when I was trying to collect, the others probably got shocked from the cold, I was only able to grab a few relatively quickly after they were laid...  If I were to hatch out a hen from this cross.  would the pullets be blue? 

 

Also, originally I had thought about putting the Delaware in with my Ameracauna cockerels b/c I had read that the Wheatens can also work for red sex links..  But I ended up with a Blue Wheaten and Splash Wheaten cockerels... so does the principle still apply, could I get red sex links with the Ameracaunas covering the Delaware?

 

That roo in your pic is quite pretty, actually...  a SS roo over a Delaware eh?  Boy, I have a lot to learn about genetics!!


Edited by Daloorashens - 2/13/13 at 12:28pm

DH, 3 boys under 8;  Spring 2014:  Wheaten Marans, OE and bantam cochin calico/mottled project.  Wish List: enough space for 10 more breeds

Water heaters: http://www.backyardchickens.com/a/dhens-water-homemade-water-heater

Swaps:  http://www.backyardchickens.com/a/dalooras-swap-page

 

Like kids books??  check out my web site for Usborne Books: www.x3403.myubam.com

Reply

DH, 3 boys under 8;  Spring 2014:  Wheaten Marans, OE and bantam cochin calico/mottled project.  Wish List: enough space for 10 more breeds

Water heaters: http://www.backyardchickens.com/a/dhens-water-homemade-water-heater

Swaps:  http://www.backyardchickens.com/a/dalooras-swap-page

 

Like kids books??  check out my web site for Usborne Books: www.x3403.myubam.com

Reply
post #640 of 1160
Quote:
Originally Posted by Daloorashens View Post

Ridgerunner, thanks for your answer!! Very well explained...   Amazingly, I totally understood it, lol...

So now I have a couple other questions....  This was the only egg that hatched from that cross, it was very cold (below zero) when I was trying to collect, the others probably got shocked from the cold, I was only able to grab a few relatively quickly after they were laid...  If I were to hatch out a hen from this cross.  would the pullets be blue? 

Also, originally I had thought about putting the Delaware in with my Ameracauna cockerels b/c I had read that the Wheatens can also work for red sex links..  But I ended up with a Blue Wheaten and Splash Wheaten cockerels... so does the principle still apply, could I get red sex links with the Ameracaunas covering the Delaware?

That roo in your pic is quite pretty, actually...  a SS roo over a Delaware eh?  Boy, I have a lot to learn about genetics!!
If you used the splash, all chicks would be blue, not sure if the spot would show up good though
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