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Do chickens feel pain? - Page 5

post #41 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by rivers2011 
Quote:
Originally Posted by cicene mete 

I KNOW Annie would have died if we didn't do what we did.   Today she is alive and well and outside enjoying a BEAUTIFUL Autumn day.

I know people who have lost cats, dogs, birds, and people to anesthesia.  We don't have access to a vet who would do this kind of surgery (that I know of).  I couldn't afford it right now anyway.  I was VERY, VERY BLESSED to have Chickensioux, a vet tech, willing to help.

Again, I apologize if I offended anyone.

Hope y'all have a GREAT DAY!!  If you ask Annie, she'd tell you she sure is.


First of all, I am sorry to hear about your health.  I'm sure I speak for all of us when I say that we are all thinking about you and hoping for the best.  I would say "stay strong," but it's very clear from what you've described that you are more than strong.  Please don't apologize for saving the life of Annie.  I, for one, am glad you did.


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Jade Chow Check out my FB & Chicken Blog - GF of James Duke (Bubba Duke)

Yorkie: Lillee

W Silkies: Bobbi & Bebe

Blue Orp: Blueberry

EE: Jack

Black Orp: LaFawnduh

SL Wyandotte: Shangela

GL Polish: Dorthee

Sultan: Lily

Serama: Alfred

Pekin Ducks: Daisy & Donald

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post #42 of 47

Yes they do- but ya gotta do what ya gotta do-

Besides I'm missing the link right now but even plants respond to touch, bug infestation, injury... is that the same as pain? maybe, maybe not.

Pain in animals:

http://jap.physiology.org/content/56/4/1135.extract

http://www.grandin.com/welfare/fear.pain.stress.html

Lesion Studies and Pain
Observations of patients with frontal lobotomies provided some of the first evidence that the frontal cortex was involved in pain perception. Before the invention of psychotropic drugs, lobotomies were used for treating schizophrenia, manic depression, and reducing chronic pain in non-psychiatric patients. Psychosurgery (lobotomy) was performed by severing the prefrontal cortex from the rest of the brain. In the early part of this century, psychosurgery was crude and the whole prefrontal cortex was cut (Freeman and Watts, 1950). By 1946, a method of cutting just the frontal parts of the prefrontal cortex was introduced (Freeman and Watts, 1950). This procedure called cingulotomy, is still used today to treat intractable pain in some cancer patients (Sweet, 1982). Cingulotomy is more effective and causes fewer side effects compared to the old style of lobotomy.

After a lobotomy, patients with chronic pain or depression often regained the ability to function normally and retained their general intelligence, but they lost all emotional depth and feeling (Freeman & Watts, 1950; Foltz & White, 1962; Hurt & Balliantine, 1974). Their emotional experience was greatly reduced after lesioning of the prefrontal cortex, and patients with the largest areas of the prefrontal cortex disconnected had the greatest effects. However, lobotomy patients retained normal pain reflexes and would pull away when a doctor manipulated an injured area of their body. They disliked momentary pain yet were indifferent to the pain of their disease (Freeman & Watts, 1950). A patient might scream when a doctor manipulated a tender body part, but the next minute he was smiling after the painful manipulation was stopped. Their behavioral reactions seemed disjointed. Lobotomy patients experienced pain, but did not experience the emotional feeling of pain. The patients reaction to a painful medical procedure was entirely in the present. They seemed to have lost the fear of pain.

More recently, pain research on humans show that a mildly painful stimulus applied to the hand increases blood flow in the frontal cortex (Smith and Boyd, 1991), and a PET scan study by Rainville, et al (1997) provided direct experimental evidence linking the PFC with the emotional component to pain. By using hypnotic suggestions to both increase and decrease a pain sensation, significant changes in pain-evoked activity was found in the anterior cingulate cortex. This is consistent with the clinical observations made in lobotomy patients. A more recent study on chronic pain which causes long-term suffering showed that activity in the frontal cortex was increased (Apkorian et al., 2001). Fulbright et al. (2001) found that pain and basic sensory input are processed in different parts of the brain. A painful cold water stimulus activates the anterior circulate and a non-painful cold stimulus only activates sensory areas.

Lesion studies in rats indicate that the frontal cortex has similar functions in rodents and humans. Lesions in the frontal cortex of rats impairs behavioral flexibility and the organization of species typical behaviors (Kolb and Tees, 1990). In both humans and rats, frontal cortex lesions cause behaviors to become disjointed and fragmented (Freeman and Watts, 1950; Kolb and Tees, 1990). Even the small frontal cortex in the rat brain performs the same functions as mammals with more complex brains (Kolb and Tees, 1990). Therefore, it is likely that the frontal cortex in rats is involved in pain perception in a similar manner as humans.

{SNIP}

Suffering in Reptiles and Birds:
After reading many articles about frontal cortex anatomy in warm blooded animals, we became convinced that rats, cats, dogs, horses and cattle can suffer from long term pain which is true pain. The fact that rats with chronic pain will actively seek analgesics is convincing evidence of suffering, or serious discomfort. What about birds, reptiles and fish? Research on de-beaked chickens shows they pain guard after the procedure and will reduce food intake. De-beaked chickens are reluctant to use their beaks. Sometimes a neuroma forms on the end of the beak after it heals. Neuromas can cause pain in man (Gentle, et al 1990). Chickens with neuromas reduce the number of pecks at feeding (Gentle, et al 1990; Duncan et al 1989). We agree that mammals from rats, cats, and dogs would have similar degrees of suffering when subjected to a painful procedure. However, it is likely that birds may experience pain differently. Recent work by Gentle (1997) show that decebrate chickens will still pain guard legs injected with a substance that causes pain. The results suggest that in chickens, pain from chronic arthritis is organized in the brainstem. However, if the chickens beak is trimmed and the frontal area of the brain is removed, pain guarding and other pain related behaviors are absent. But, if the beak is trimmed six days after the frontal area of the brain is removed, the chicken continues to pain guard (Gentle, et al 1997). It appears that chickens are unable to process two emotions simultaneously. Chickens may suffer from chronic pain when they are undisturbed, but when disturbed or frightened, the pain ceases and the chicken can only attend to the fear (Gentle and Corr, 1995). Prelaying behavior and feeding motivation can completely suppress pain coping behaviors in arthritic chickens (Gentle and Corr, 1995; Wylie and Gentle, 1998). Turkeys with degenerative hip disorders reduce spontaneous activity and sexual activity (Duncan et al 1991). The authors conclude that the different systems in a birds brain may be less integrated than in higher mammals. A bird may be more mono channel and operate only one system at a time. The bird would probably be suffering if the pain or fear channel is operating.

Do reptiles or amphibians suffer from pain? Research shows that the nervous system of amphibians responds to analgesic drugs. Amphibians will respond to a painful stimulus applied to the skin. Many different types of analgesic drugs will reduce the response (Stevens et al., 1994; Stevens et al., 2001). Is this true suffering from pain or is it just a reflex like touching a hot stove?

Do reptiles and amphibians pain guard or seek analgesics? Both these areas need to be researched. The antedotes below may provide some insights for guiding future research. Discussions with reptile specialists indicate that reptiles may or may not pain guard. Friend (1998 personal communication) indicates that igaunas will walk on a severely damaged leg and make no attempt to reduce weight on the damaged limb. Igaunas are physically capable of lifting a leg to favor it, but they do not. Lizards react to noxious stimuli which may cause acute pain, but may have little reaction to injuries that would cause long term pain. However, Friend (1998) was adamant that reptiles experience pain, but when we discussed pain guarding behavior and chronic pain, she stated; I never thought about that before. Discussions with Dr, Fredrick Fry a reptile veterinarian at the University of California indicated that there are signs of pain guarding in other reptiles. A tortoise with a sore mouth will not eat and if it has a sore toe it will not walk. This is likely to be true pain guarding. Snakes with a damaged mouth may refuse to eat or lie on their backs to avoid pain. A tortoise with an abscess in its head will refuse to eat. Eating resumes shortly after the abscess is drained. Even fish pain guard. Dr. Steve Kestin, University of Bristol states that a fish with an inflamed gut will reduce activity. Maybe this can be explained by weakness from sickness. However, the fish will swim normally when it is chased with a net. Dr. Kestin also says a fish will avoid the place where it has been hooked or shocked. Rakover (1979) reports that fish can easily learn to avoid an aversive fear arousing stimulus by swimming away. In these situations it is impossible to separate fear from pain. Feelings of fear are very aversive and subjecting any animal to situations which cause it to be highly fearful would be very detrimental to its welfare.


Edited by FireTigeris - 6/8/11 at 6:14am

 Scientist and Tutor, expert at nothing, opinions on everything.

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 Scientist and Tutor, expert at nothing, opinions on everything.

2012 Art Contest runs till Midnight EST Dec 31st 2012

http://www.backyardchickens.com/t/634433/2012-coloring-contest-rule-thread

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post #43 of 47

Ice/ice water (say for bumblefoot surgery) is easy, affordable and DOES help... and IS better than nothing.   As a matter of fact, my good, old-fashioned family doctor has used it on me a number of times for actual minor (cutting into the body) surgeries.


Edited by mmaddie's mom - 6/8/11 at 7:34am
dmb/mm   
GOD is good, all the time...

(o}Q^:3
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dmb/mm   
GOD is good, all the time...

(o}Q^:3
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post #44 of 47

Pain, at it's very basic level, is a very powerful evolutionary tool organisms have developed in order to protect themselves.  Almost every mobile organism feels it, because to not feel it is a serious disadvantage.

If you cannot feel pain, you can't protect your body from harm and damage.  For example: if an animal didn't feel pain when it stepped on something sharp, it would make no effort to avoid sharp items, and open it's body to all sorts of infection and damage.  Lack of pain is FATAL.

Additional complications that come with lack of pain are that the part of the nervous system that senses pain is also intimately tied to temperature monitoring and control.  In other words, the sensors in your skin that can tell when you are too cold, and therefore should get somewhere warm are tied to the pain nerves.  If you don't have those nerves, you die because you can't regulate your temperature. Remember, being way too cold physically HURTS.  It's actually a genetic disorder in humans as well.  Here is an interesting news story that I ran across recently that really explains well the dangers of not being able to feel pain:

http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/OnCall/story?id=1386322

That's why I very much look down on the intelligence of people who are convinced that animals feel no pain, and won't even consider the possibility.  If the animal is a successful organism, it feels pain.  Otherwise mother nature would have culled the species a long time ago because it couldn't look after it's own survival or regulate it's own temperature.

Can the animal express the pain in terms that humans understand?  Most likely not.  Also, remember that many species of animals (cats most notably) HIDE THEIR PAIN, because it makes them a target to predators.  I've actually seen chickens do this as well.

I hope that helps to answer your question.  You've recieved some good answers from the other posters as well smile

"It's easy. You draw a red line on the ground, right? Then you wait for a chicken to come along. When he arrives, he puts his beak right on the line and he's hypnotized!"
Joey Santiago
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"It's easy. You draw a red line on the ground, right? Then you wait for a chicken to come along. When he arrives, he puts his beak right on the line and he's hypnotized!"
Joey Santiago
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post #45 of 47

When it comes to pain, I think the main difference between simpler animals like chickens and humans is simply that animals don't remember their pain and dwell on it.  They don't have complex emotional lives that lead to emotional scarring on top of the temporary pain felt.  In general, even us humans are very coddled compared to in the past, always given anesthesia or pain medication.  Most of us have very little concept of what it actually feels like to have something broken or cut deeply.  IMO, injury and surgery always looks much more painful than it would actually feel.  For example, cutting through skin and muscle into the gut would definitely hurt, but moving organs around once inside the gut would not particularly hurt.  The pain caused by simple surgery is fleeting, it hurts the most as the cut is made and then subsides.  The pain triggers an adrenaline response, as well as a natural endorphin response to balance that out.  The organism, human or animal, tends to figure out how to react and heal better if the pain is felt naturally.  Consider how much quicker a woman will heal from natural childbirth than from a cesarian.

In a nutshell, I think that chickens definitely feel pain, but they won't hate you for it, and it's not bad for them.  Continual stress and bad conditions can be bad for them, but transitory pain won't equal to the chicken having a bad life.

post #46 of 47

I would just like to add some personal experience to one part of this. I worked with dogs for nearly 10 years and have had stitches from dog bites a few times. The last time I told the doctor not to bother with the local anesthesia because the shot stings a lot in the beginning before it kicks in and I only needed 3 sutures. The stitching hurt a lot less than the numbing shot. If I get stitches again, even a lot of them, I wouldn't get the site numbed. It didn't hurt much more than a tattoo. Personally, for something like suturing an animal, doing it without anesthesia doesn't seem that cruel to me because I have done it myself.

post #47 of 47

They feel pain and when people do surgery on them with out pain meds, they go into shock, it is painful, If I were to EVER do surgery on my chicken I think I would research what I could give my chicken for pain meds or take it to a vet. If you think about it. VETS give pain meds before surgery, even on snakes. Every animal feels pain........

1 wife...ME...and lover of, 1 Husband,1 little mutt, 1 German Shepherd, and chickens!
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1 wife...ME...and lover of, 1 Husband,1 little mutt, 1 German Shepherd, and chickens!
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