There are shows, and then there are shows...

I don't show and have no plans to, but I couldn't agree with you more.  I've asked breeders before where exactly they've shown.

Well, even at a sanctioned show with 1500 birds, there may only be a very few of a breed or even division.  But in general, I do agree that there can be a huge discrepancy between a win and a WIN!

I also personally believe that ALL state and county fair poultry exhibitions should be sanctioned, as should many 4H shows.  (I say many rather than all because I realize that 4H includes shows based upon production rather than exhibition.)  At the very least, they should be run and judged as if sanctioned.

I agree, but there's more to it. Even at real, legitimate shows, those sanctioned by the APA, we see people who enter some obscure breed or variety, have no competition, and try to fool everyone, including themselves, into thinking that they have something worthwhlie when they win a "first place ribbon". I see it here all the time, and wonder how people can be so ignorant.

Whether or not i classified it as a win would have to be judged by the birds i was showing against, if i bred my birds and took it to a show (doesn't matter what) and won against other show quality birds then i would count that as a win. But if i took my birds and only showed against hatchery birds, or i was on the only one that owned the variety/breed which is why i got BV or BB then i could careless, number of the birds isn't that much to me, as long as there was one extraordinary bird there and i beat it, i'd be happy.

-Daniel.

And sometimes that single bird in an obscure breed or division really is an excellent example of its breed.  And sometimes you may have 100 birds of a breed, but not a one is as good an example as that single bird.

SURE it is. And just about every hatchery or swap meet purchase entered by it's present owner (not the breeder) with no competition, but which has a cutesy name, and wins a first place ribbon is one of those "excellent examples of its breed". SURE it is.

I think that it is buyer beware regardless of where you are and what you are buying. I am still trying to figure out who is who in my search for adding Buckeyes to our place. These will be my first non-hatchery chickens and it has been quite the education. When looking at what people are saying about their birds and then trying to take into account that I am in California and, for the good of the birds, should find birds closer to me than Alabama/Kentucky/Georgia, it has been quite an education. Thankfully I have chosen a breed where there are a bunch of people looking out for the breed!! That is making a huge difference in my education as well as will really help me to make an informed decision to get the best start-up stock that I can to help preserve this breed properly.

I also think that for some people it is adding to a sales pitch to have a win in whatever show, and that for others, they may really not think that there is a difference. Partly it is perspective there from both the seller's point of view and a buyer's point of view. For some it may be inexperience.... I have more experience with showing and breeding dogs and horses and see it there ALL the time!! We regularly see people who get super excited over this champion or that champion in their pedigrees or who are just blown away because their puppy's sire just won his champion title, but who don't realize that it was the sire dog's owner who got her friends together with their lesser quality dogs to pad the entries to get that last major that was never going to happen any other way! Of course, there are many, many examples, this was just the shortest one that came to mind.

In chickens, I don't know one show from the next and I am trying to learn all  that I can in a short amount of time to make the most informed decision possible. I really do NOT want to wait till next year to start this project!! I would know more by then, had a chance to go to a few shows, talked to many, many more people about my breed of choice, but we all know that this chicken thing is addictive and if I wait much longer, I will loose out on getting my birds. All this for birds that I really do not plan on showing (need to STOP reading the Buckeye thread cause it is soooo tempting), but I know that is one indicator of excellent stock if the breeder's birds are doing well. I am sure that there are chicken breeders out there that may have birds bred to the Standard Of Perfection, but may not be actively showing for a variety of reasons. I know that there are in dogs because I am one of those breeders....

Edited for a misspelling that I missed earlier.... ~L

I am in California and, for the good of the birds, should find birds closer to me than Alabama/Kentucky/Georgia

If that's where the birds you're most impressed with are there's no reason not to get them from there. I've had birds shipped from CA to Upstate NY on 2 occasions% they arrived fine.

Nyreds....I've got a question for you.  As a judge are you obligated to award all the placings if you feel none of them measure up?