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Cemani - Page 9

post #81 of 92
Quote:
Originally Posted by cedarcreekchickens 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Resolution 

I'm not willing to let my Cemani stock out unless poultiers are willing to go about it in the patient method.


How long do you figure this patient method will take. I'm in no hurry, just wondering. You have Cemani stock?


Once we have  Ayam Kedu- and let's revisit this issue-

You don't need the Ayam Cemani- you need Ayam Pelung Kedu. From the Ayam Kedu one reaches the Cemani and since the black bones and flesh of this subbreed are but one attribute, selecting for hypermelanism before there is a proper frame upon which to apply the ink stained tissue- you've just entered into yet another counter-productive poultry selective breeding initiative.

Recreating a mirror strain of Ayam Kedu is not difficult, especially with the inclusion of W.C. Lawrence's aforementioned stocks.

What's important is to make sure that the founders of the first next generation recombines Shamo and Sumatran; JF/Longtail, Tomaru and Black Java.

As W.C. has all that stock - much of it already recombined, there's a good 30% along the way.  Once there is a composite of the above breeds- and by composite- we need four generations- bred interese- that is sibling to sibling until each individual in the founding group contains Shamo- Sumatran, JF/Longtail, Tomaru and Black Java- and nothing else-

That's only two years tops.

The most ideal birds that meet the ideal carriage, height and length of body and leg- these are selected for, together with very dark females.

Once there are mirror phenotypes of the Ayam Kedu breeding the stock that actually contains Kedu genetics = some birds that contain 75% of the alleles necessary to generate Ayam Kedu.



Yes. I have some stock that are primarily Ayam Kedu recombined with Toh Tenko. They look like Kedu with oversized combs and wattles. They are white skinned.
Before I had them they were being bred towards a specific ideal- t "Manzanar". Very tall, large birds of light to medium weight about the size of standard Paduan.

Most are black, many birchen and a few are blueish grey.  The Kedu/Cemani was used to increase the comb height and number of serrations.

As the Nippon-ized Kedu already exist all that is needed is the recombination I've discussed here.

That is- the Manzanar could be used to provide the really difficult carriage, the voice, the long body- all that careful selective breeding that went into Kedu- its all there-

That in itself is thirty or forty years of work already completed.

The composite I've discussed bred to the Manzanar- all together five years at the longest


Edited by Resolution - 6/18/11 at 10:09am
post #82 of 92

With all that being said, if someone really wants to work on this project, and you want to use some of my stock, just holler at me and let me know.  I have several young birds to spare.

Mixed Longcrowers and Longtails.  GreY junglefowl Hybrids.
Just the coolest chickens ever.  That's all.
Pictures of some Bengals, scroll to the bottom after you click on the link;
http://www.feathersite.com/Poultry/NDG/BRKGJF.html
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Mixed Longcrowers and Longtails.  GreY junglefowl Hybrids.
Just the coolest chickens ever.  That's all.
Pictures of some Bengals, scroll to the bottom after you click on the link;
http://www.feathersite.com/Poultry/NDG/BRKGJF.html
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post #83 of 92

(Sorry to reopen an old thread - this one is so very interesting)

... until each individual in the founding group contains Shamo- Sumatran, JF/Longtail, Tomaru and Black Java- and nothing else-


I thought I should underline, for new readers and anyone overwhelmed by the sheer amount of information here, that simply recreating an Ayam Kedu from similar-to-founding stock is not a guarantee that the bird will carry a gene for black flesh. One would need to start with at least one founder already having black flesh or carrying the Fm gene. As I understand it there's no guarantee that every individual modern-day Ayam Kedu can give rise to a Cemani. One may have in place all the factors to produce hypermelanised tissue in the presence of the Fm gene, but it won't happen properly without the presence of the Fm gene (and the absence of Id, dermal melanin inhibitor?) If I'm wrong here, somebody please explain what I'm missing.

I was under the impression that even in the Green Junglefowl, hypermelanization of the skin and flesh (ie, Fm, and / or the other factor that Resolution mentions) was a trait circulating in some populations but not others, ie, not in every single member of the species? If anyone can point me to reading matter which explains this better, I'd much appreciate it. I'm also curious about the other melanization factor and wondered if it has been written up anywhere.

Cheers, exop


Edited by exop - 5/30/11 at 7:12pm
post #84 of 92
Thread Starter 

Hi Exop,sorry I dont understand the genetic terms (thicko)but when I got my first chicks they were both cockerels and while waiting for a hen I mated one to a black australorp and the chicks were black skinned Recently 2 of the hens mated to the other cockerel produced black skinned and normal skinned

post #85 of 92

Hey Tingle, happy to see you're still out there! Did you get some Cemani hens eventually, then? I'd love to see pictures.

On the gene stuff, no worries, it's pretty straightforward under all the jargon. Generally speaking, everyone has two of every type of gene, you get one from each parent. Then when you reproduce, you pass on one randomly chosen gene, from every pair of your genes, to your own children.

The gene abbreviations like Fm and Id and E aren't chemical formulas or anything, they're just shorthand names for a few genes which scientists have been able to identify by doing chicken breeding experiments.

The Fm gene for black tissue, which both the Silkie and Cemani have, is a dominant or partly dominant gene. Meaning that even if you get the gene from only one parent, you will see results.

(Any gene symbol which starts with a capital letter - like E or Fm - is a dominant gene. A "+" sign marks the original version of the gene, as found in chickens' distant past before recent mutations.)

One of the other genes which can muffle or hide the Fm gene is the dominant Id gene, dermal melanin inhibitor, which reduces or removes black color from the dermis (inner layer of the skin). This is a sex-linked gene (sex-linked genes still make my head hurt), which in birds means that a mother can pass it on to her sons, but not her daughters; and the rooster can pass it on to any of his children of either sex.

The alternative to Id is id+, a black dermis (on legs and feet); and the alternative to Fm is fm+, regular pink tissue.

I don't know if Australorps have Id or not;  either way you could get some black fleshed birds from a first generation mating.

If Australorps have Id/Id, then a cross between Australorp hen Id fm+/fm+ and a Cemani rooster id+/id+ Fm/Fm would give
1. female chicks with id+ Fm/fm+
   ... they would have black flesh, but also carry the gene for pink flesh (fm+)
2. male chicks with Id/id+ Fm/fm+
   ... possibly pink or grey flesh

Otherwise, if Australorps have id+, all the offspring would look black fleshed:
1. females id+ Fm/fm+
2. males id+/id+ Fm/fm+

If you got into second generation matings, between birds who each secretly carried fm+, you'd start to see some pink fleshed offspring again. (There's about a 25% chance that offspring would get an fm+ gene from both their parents. It's when you have only the fm+ genes, and no Fm gene that all chance of black flesh goes away completely).

Best, exop


Edited by exop - 6/19/11 at 5:01am
post #86 of 92

Sorry to rehash an old post, but can a chicken have black skin but normal pink meat?

post #87 of 92

All the ones I have cooked with black skin have black raw meat and dark brown cooked meat.  I have some of the South American stocks, but no Cemani

Jocelyn

post #88 of 92
Quote:
Originally Posted by Resolution View Post


The Ayam Cemani is a colour morph of the Ayam Pelung. Cemani hatch from Ayam Pelung; the Pelung hatch from Cemani.

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a83/PiAmoun/ayam-pelung-cianjur-kab.jpg

Besides the ink black morph there are two other colour types-

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a83/PiAmoun/ayam-pelung-riva.jpg


That a wild-type chick hatched is very fortunate. It means that the breeder is scrupulous. He knows that a founder group of only one colour morph will eventually stop reproducing or at least the females will no longer produce viable eggs.  When you have stock that still produces one or both the other colour types consider yourself fortunate.
They are Ayam Cemani, Ayam Pelung or Ayam Cianjur Kab

Ayam Pelung is an ancient breed derived of the female Indonesian Red Junglefowl Gallus bankiva. Versus the South East Asian Red Junglefowl Gallus spadiceus.
This is notable for the fact that Indonesians domesticated the Indonesian Red Junglefowl . Their domestic fowl were strictly ceremonial creations. They were initially a fighting breed. This domestication event was significantly earlier than that of the South East Asian Junglefowl.

Other genetic founders of the Ayam Cemani are the female Austronesian Game Fowl Gallus giganteus and the Ayam bekisar.
In this usage the term genetic founders relates to the ancestral base- the four corners if you will. Other local breeds may have contributed since the inception in one village or region or the other. Nevertheless, the roots of the breed are quite unlike most Asiatic fowl. The hypermelanism is inherited from the Green Junglefowl and the massive size of the Ayam Cemani and Pelung  is inherited from the primitive ancestor of those giant fighting games like the Ga Noi, Malagasy Game ; Malay and Saipan, Shamo. 
This doesn't mean that any of the mentioned breeds are included in its makeup, but rather, shared a common recent ancestor- and by recent we are talking three to five thousand years ago.

The rounded hackles are reminiscent of the Indonesian Red Junglefowl but the texture and pattern reveals that Ayam Bekisar males were also important founders in this ancient breed lineage.


Later, breeds like the Sumatran and the Silky came to pass and these represent - a guild of sibling lineages that includes the Ayam Cemani, Koeyoshi, Tomaru, Japanese White Silky and Mapuche Huastec.  All these black boned birds share a common ancestral bleu print. They are not identical but so close that one can appreciate the slightest diversion from more genetically homogeneous stock/ breeds. When a bird with frizzle or a naked neck hatch you know that you have birds descended from the original line.
The original Austronesian Gamefowl exhibited frizzled feathers and an at least seasonally naked neck. But that breed also had a knob of a comb and a slight crest.
At any rate,some of the most ancient breeds on Indonesia are the Astronesian Game, the Ayam Bekisar and the Ayam Cemani/Pelung. Silkies and Sumatrans were bred from the





http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x3za3j_sa-ding-ding-alive_music

Dear Resolution,

 

I live in the country where these birds originated from and I have had the luxury of having both fine examples of Pelung and Cemani and I tell you that these two breeds are not related to one another... They even originated from different province, they come in different size and colors.

 

Some of Ayam Pelung or Pelung Chickens do have black legs and feet, but they come in so many colour varieties. Although my father only had those with black legs and feet, doesn't mean that we could not easily find ones with white legs.  It's just black legs and feet were and still preffered by many hobbyist. That's all.

 

As for Ayam Bekisar.... Phuh they came from another different province. While Cemani originated from Central Java Province, Pelung from West Java Province, Bekisar was at first bred in Madura Island, and island in East Java Province.

 

Apart from differences on the way they look, the all sounds different. Pelung and Bekisar are valued for their voice when they crow, Cemani for the black color. Crossbreed the Pelung with non Pelung chicken from West Java Province, or any other province and we'll lost the voice. Bekisar is a final stock, the females are infertil, and mating between male Bekisar with Indonesian domestic hen will result non Bekisar chicken.

 

Just sharing what I believe from my experince with the three breeds mentioned.

 

best regards,

Yukie - Indonesia

post #89 of 92

What kind of chicken is this?

 

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a83/PiAmoun/Gallusinae/Gallusvariusmaleinnestdefensemode.jpg

MO NPIP #43-809
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MO NPIP #43-809
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post #90 of 92

That is a Green Jungle Fowl.

Hatching eggs: Norwegian Jaerhon and Easter Egger x Olive Egger. Horses: Paints, Dartmoor, Dartmoor Sport Ponies, Goats: Nubians, Dogs: Plott Hound, English Springer Spaniel, Norwegian Elkhound, Great Pyrenees, Cats: Savannahs. barn cats

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Hatching eggs: Norwegian Jaerhon and Easter Egger x Olive Egger. Horses: Paints, Dartmoor, Dartmoor Sport Ponies, Goats: Nubians, Dogs: Plott Hound, English Springer Spaniel, Norwegian Elkhound, Great Pyrenees, Cats: Savannahs. barn cats

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