Marans Thread - breed discussion & pictures are welcome! - Page 3684

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Originally Posted by gilavina 

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Originally Posted by Arielle 

 

I have read a number of SOP's if you will for horses, I was astounded to realize the written description of a horse can be markedly the same YET in reality the body and function of the horse is quite different. Granted in the case of horses , the descriptions are developed by the paraent organization who's staff is not the same breeders and judges of the other breed. Fortunately the SOP is developed by the same body of people for all the chickens. If I am wrong on the please correct me. Reading the SOP is a guide , a perfection to breed toward; an actual example will always have a flaw, even if slight. Having good examples to look at, IMO, is key. Master breeders have this information ingrained in there brains; how can one breeder say this is the SOP and another saythis is the SOP. If they choose to ignore some aspect of the SOP, that is of concern BUT there can be valid reasons for this. I'm too much of a novice and  I think I'm beating a dead horse here. 

 

Am I beating a dead horse here?!? 

I don't think you are. I think, while I don't want to admit this, the difficulty a lot of people...even people that have been in poultry for a long time run into is some of the things you mentioned. I tried to come up with some useful suggestions for you in my previous post...this is how I learned poultry and I think why its been a smoother transition into the Marans, because of my exposure to just the general parts of poultry that transfer to nearly all breeds (there will be occasional exceptions, but those are usually tied to the breed's specific standard). If you have questions, don't hesitate to ask, I'll try to help as much as I can lady.

THank you. I know I have lots to learn, and this last year has been like cramming for a college test! I look at my birds and try to see the differences in the way they walk, or carry their wings. I observe and compare. I see subtle color differences, but don't know the names of the colors. ANd photos distort coloring. Much to learn! At least coming from horses I have a head start.

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Originally Posted by snowbird 

Arielle, There are no Marans master breeders as they have not been around long enough. Find a copy of the APA yearbook and it explains all the points and list the master breeders in other breeds.

 

Just remember you are working with chickens here and it is entirely different than Horses.

Don, respectfully, I think it is all Mendalian genetics. WHile the creature is different and the specific genes are different, we use selection to achieve a function and a look and a health level, etc. The Dutch are among the best geneticists in the world in my opinion. A lot of money goes into studying genetic vs environment factors when creating a breeding plan for the horses. I suspect this applies to all their livestock. DH read a Smithsoinian article: chickens were the next genome to be cataloged after the human one. Makes me think chickens are very important in the world of genetics.

 Your point on master breeders matches an opinion I was keeping to myself. Waiting to see if anyone said it .  The numbers of marans is still increasing as it is in its early stages of popularity. Establishing enough good stock will take years. Then will come the master breeders. 

Would Bev Davis and a few others be regarded as master breeders?

Certainly Not, you have to show and win best of breed or reserve of breed with a certain number in breed to get points. I will drig out the yearbook with all this info. Post any of your Marans and I will give you a complete critique and complete explaination.

Thanks DOn, you are generous with your knowledge.  As are all of you on this thread.

On another note: Birds are doing ok on this hot and humid day.  I actually put ice in the bigger buckets. ANd put out water everywher!. Thank goodness we have not cut down every tree on the place. I think the heat is far worse than any cold, except the windy kind!! Trees beneficial then too. Tomorrow is cooler.

Trying to rebuild a winter grow out pen, well boarded up, to become an open design for the summer and teach my boys about building. I figure they can learn a thing or two about scrap wood and pallet construction this summer now that school is out!! 

My youngest has claimed the new speckled sussex as his project birds! Will give them the summer to settle into new home. Of course we still need to build a new coop and run just for them! Way behind in construction and can't find the blasted electric drill, and the boys snapped a drill bit!! Misuse I'm sure when I wasn't supervising!! They will learn! 

Arielle, there is a good SS thread that Lisa "mathace" looks after.

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Originally Posted by Arielle 

Both of you have actually not revealed information that is useful to a novice in the breed. There is the assumption that I understand the language of the SOP and that the pictures are acturate which only an experience breeder would know.

 

Can you see the cunundrum?  Knowing who the master breeders are are only the starting  point of learning, but clearly if that person has reached that point, they have a very good understanding of that breed. I have learned breeding horses over 25years, it didn't happen in one day or one year. But knowing who to call for information has helped. ANd yes, listening to how frank a person is is very telling about honesty. I have never met a perfect horse yet every buyer wants a perfect horse. As a fairly knowledgeable horse person, I do try to educate to the level that a person wants to listen. ANd I turn away buyers at times.  I expect it is the same with poultry. 

 

Yes, absolutely there are very good breeders that will never have taken a bird to a show. But I do not yet have the knowledge to critique with accuracy. 

 

Hence are there any master breeders of marans?

Just like in horse breeding, a good eye can not necessarily be trained into a person. There is a HUGE art form to successful breeding - in horses AND poultry. It can be largely subjective. A master poultry breeder has established themself as someone who knows how to see a bird. Regardless of breed.

I am absolutely confident there are master breeders of Marans. To me the real question is - are there any perfect or even nearly perfect Marans out there yet? The "master breeders" are the folks like Don and Bev and others who have a clear idea in their head of where they want to go with the birds and a good understanding of the raw materials they need to get there. That doesn't mean, however, that it will always work or that they will get the birds they need to make it happen.

Yes, as in all things, art is learned. Breeding is an art, though science aids in many ways. It takes practice and a good teacher to see the complete animal before you. THen, the harder step is to know which animal to breed that one to. In horses, if the resulting offspring is less than stellar, a different combination is used, in hopes of producing  better offspring. 

How is breeding birds any different than breeding horses? OTher than the XY, ZW chromosomes. I'm really stumped by the number of people saying breeding horses is different than chickens. 

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Originally Posted by Arielle 

Yes, as in all things, art is learned. Breeding is an art, though science aids in many ways. It takes practice and a good teacher to see the complete animal before you. THen, the harder step is to know which animal to breed that one to. In horses, if the resulting offspring is less than stellar, a different combination is used, in hopes of producing  better offspring. 

 

How is breeding birds any different than breeding horses? OTher than the XY, ZW chromosomes. I'm really stumped by the number of people saying breeding horses is different than chickens. 

I totally agree about the science aiding the art. In poultry, the APA does acknowledge "Master Breeders" and as Don said, I'm not sure any of the folks working with Marans are listed as "Masters" by APA standards. However, they don't always have to be acknowledged to be Masters. There are several folks out there producing birds with tons of experience and a clear plan and direction. You or I may or may not like their individual vision but they can defend it.

Like you, from a genetic point of view I'm not convinced breeding chickens is any different than breeding horses. Except for the extreme difference in the amount of time it takes to produce one. However, with chickens, they do seem to like to breed them genetically related - line breeding, closed flocks, fathers to daughters, mothers to sons, etc. We don't do that with horses. So I'm assuming I still have a lot to learn.

Hey all, just to let everyone know there is even a Hall of Fame award from the APA and the only one I know of is right here in Michigan and he is well known by anyone that shows or ever showed poultry. Soon as I find the APA yearbook will post the rules for anyone ever being a master Breeder. Take my word for it is not easy to accomplish.

First thing you have to be a continous member of the APA, if you do not keep the dues paid you will lose all the points, thats where I would be classified as I didn't care about those kind of awards.

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Originally Posted by gilavina 

 

I agree with most of your post, however being raised in a poultry breeding family , some of the best breeders I've ever known are people that just do it because they love it and breed fantastic stock. Not everyone will pursue becoming a master breeder with the APA or even care to be recognized by a certain club or organization because it is a passion they do for themselves to further the breed. I look more at the length of time someone has been working with stock and the evidence of the work in the quality of the birds. I also pay attention to the frankness and openness of a breeder. I just don't want breeders without a fancy title to be discounted, because there are some fantastic ones out there that still will have things to offer. Its just like we talk about in one of the poultry clubs I'm a member of. There are as many opinions on how to raise a certain breed or make improvements as the number of people in the conversation. The proof for me is in the pudding of the quality of what they produce.Those are the people I want to listen to, master breeder or no.

 Very well said, and oh so true! Bigger (as in names), does not necessarily mean better!

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Originally Posted by gilavina 

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Originally Posted by DMRippy 

Still thinking of ordering some egg.  What if I ordered the Silvers, would I get further quicker, unless the egg color sucks.  The silvers throw reg cuckoos too right?  and my guess is there would be little to no gold showing since they are over flowing with silver

haha...I'm not sure what to tell you on whether the silvers will give you what you want or not. the 12 I ended up with from them were only the lighter and gray chicks, they didn't give me any of the cuckoo chicks that can hatch out of them, so that would be a gamble whether the cuckoos coming from them would be nice or not. The cuckoos I got came from their cuckoo pen, so 

 

Or are you just looking for an excuse to get you some silvers? hehe

As of Monday, I will be cuckoo-less.... except for a few chicks.  I did find 2 feathered legged pullets today, I didn't see any gold.  I may grow them out and see what they look like.... till something crops up.  ......  MAYBE..... I don't really need an excuse, just an empty pen.  
 

SORRY GUYS!  I didn't get to get pics of the gypsy girls.  I could see how you could use it.  I had Marans in my first batch that were GHOSTLY pale.... I didn't like that either.