Cornish Thread - Page 35

Quote:

Originally Posted by kfacres 

Forked tongues talk from both sides of their mouth.

 

How's your young pulling pup doing?

I have trouble understanding many of your posts, this one especially, and I have no pup. I'll PM you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cedarknob 

I have trouble understanding many of your posts, this one especially, and I have no pup. I'll PM you.

OK.......I thought it was just me.

Walt

Quote:

Originally Posted by NYREDS 

 

 

      Why would anyone create a breed of chickens that didn't appeal to anyone?

They sure are not going appeal to everyone though, and I understand why some might like to see the original Indian Game preserved or bred back into  existence. I fell into what is probably the majority, once thinking that the true Cornish might be valued only as a cross to a quicker growing breed. Once having located some, I fell in love with the pure bred Cornish. They are not the easiest to breed and/or own, and Galanie is probably correct that any breed bred only to win at a show will probably suffer as far as production qualities. I have no way of knowing how much truth was in the legend, but have heard that before the Van Tress brothers moved on to dedicated breeder lines of already crossed birds, that they had developed a line of pure, quicker growing, even larger, and more productive Cornish to use as one parent line.  

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cedarknob 

They sure are not going appeal to everyone though, and I understand why some might like to see the original Indian Game preserved or bred back into  existence. I fell into what is probably the majority, once thinking that the true Cornish might be valued only as a cross to a quicker growing breed. Once having located some, I fell in love with the pure bred Cornish. They are not the easiest to breed and/or own, and Galanie is probably correct that any breed bred only to win at a show will probably suffer as far as production qualities. I have no way of knowing how much truth was in the legend, but have heard that before the Van Tress brothers moved on to dedicated breeder lines of already crossed birds, that they had developed a line of pure, quicker growing, even larger, and more productive Cornish to use as one parent line.  

If bred to the APA SOP the Cornish should do very well in shows and as meat birds. They should also be able to reproduce without human intervention. Most showbirds of any breed (if bred correctly) should excel at whatever they were bred for in the first place. If a person reads the first 38 pages of the SOP it is pretty clear that the structure of bird is very important in shows. It is really not a feather contest. I am an APA/ABA general lic judge and I have judged all over the US. I would not pick a Cornish or any other bird that is not put together in a practical way and feel like it could do what it is supposed to do. There are a few breeds that are strictly ornamental, but the Cornish is not one of them. We handle the birds, we don't just look at them through the cage. I also understand that most people do not know what really happens in a real poultry show. Anything can happen in a fair as they don't always use licensed judges and this is all many people have ever seen in the way of a show.

Walt

Quote:

Originally Posted by fowlman01 

If bred to the APA SOP the Cornish should do very well in shows and as meat birds. They should also be able to reproduce without human intervention. Most showbirds of any breed (if bred correctly) should excel at whatever they were bred for in the first place. If a person reads the first 38 pages of the SOP it is pretty clear that the structure of bird is very important in shows. It is really not a feather contest. I am an APA/ABA general lic judge and I have judged all over the US. I would not pick a Cornish or any other bird that is not put together in a practical way and feel like it could do what it is supposed to do. There are a few breeds that are strictly ornamental, but the Cornish is not one of them. We handle the birds, we don't just look at them through the cage. I also understand that most people do not know what really happens in a real poultry show. Anything can happen in a fair as they don't always use licensed judges and this is all many people have ever seen in the way of a show.

 

Walt

No disrespect to show birds, judges, or those breeding to the standard was meant. I think Galanie meant, and I was reiterating, that many of a breed's production characteristics can not be evaluated at a show. If motivated only to breed an individual capable of winning at a show, other qualities might be ignored. Same could be said of breeding for production qualities alone, the SOP might be ignored to the point that a bird could become unrecognizable as a member of that breed. I have owned hatchery birds that were great layers, but certainly did not look like the breed is supposed to.  

One of the big drawbacks that many have with true Cornish is that they are not good layers. That certainly is not today's breeders fault. They are not supposed to be a dual purpose bird and never were to my knowledge. I highly doubt that even the very first crosses called Indian Games laid well either. Some also think that they must be AIed if show quality, a myth often perpetuated here. In my limited experience, they are quite capable of live breeding, and that includes my opinion of the build of the winners of the few APA shows I've seen, and there were birds being exhibited at two of those shows that were bred by today's leading breeders. I do believe that if I want to breed a Cornish I intend to show, AI might be necessary; mine look terrible after after a few live covers, their feathers suffer breakage easily. I suppose other breeds are AIed to keep them looking good also.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cedarknob 

No disrespect to show birds, judges, or those breeding to the standard was meant. I think Galanie meant, and I was reiterating, that many of a breed's production characteristics can not be evaluated at a show. If motivated only to breed an individual capable of winning at a show, other qualities might be ignored. Same could be said of breeding for production qualities alone, the SOP might be ignored to the point that a bird could become unrecognizable as a member of that breed. I have owned hatchery birds that were great layers, but certainly did not look like the breed is supposed to.  

 

One of the big drawbacks that many have with true Cornish is that they are not good layers. That certainly is not today's breeders fault. They are not supposed to be a dual purpose bird and never were to my knowledge. I highly doubt that even the very first crosses called Indian Games laid well either. Some also think that they must be AIed if show quality, a myth often perpetuated here. In my limited experience, they are quite capable of live breeding, and that includes my opinion of the build of the winners of the few APA shows I've seen, and there were birds being exhibited at two of those shows that were bred by today's leading breeders. I do believe that if I want to breed a Cornish I intend to show, AI might be necessary; mine look terrible after after a few live covers, their feathers suffer breakage easily. I suppose other breeds are AIed to keep them looking good also.

I know that there was no disrespect on your side. You have a good grasp of what the birds can do. The only thing I can't tell about the Cornish I judge is how many eggs a female can lay. I can tell if it is a good meat bird. Cornish may not grow fast enough to compete with the crosses, but the Cornish you see in shows now are pretty much what they had here in the US in the late 1800's. The description has not changed. Cornish were always meant to be meat birds, so super egg laying is not expected. If a chicken can't reproduce they soon become extinct, so they lay well enough.

Maybe Al will chime in. He raises show Cornish and meat Cornish, so he is far more expert than me with both sides of the street....so to speak. I know that there are some folks who do AI Cornish and other breeds, but they are taking the wrong road in my opinion. One of the most exaggerated show Cornish I have ever seen (Lewis Strait bird owned by Zelotes Eshmeyer) was incredibly huge with a head that looked unreal, but I knew the bird could breed cuz he was so aggressive and could move so fast that I refused to judge him. Any bird that big and that fast could certainly breed....and do major damage to me. I tried all the tricks I use to grab a mean bird but this thing was just too big and too fast to get a hold on without some serious damage to my hands. Any bird that could move like that and have that kind of vigor should not have a problem with a direct deposit.....so to speak.

walt

Quote:

Originally Posted by SteveH 

The cockerals in three of my 2012 breeding pens:


yearling White Cornish...........................

hmm funny looking comb?  Wonder why it's so big?

Quote:

Originally Posted by fowlman01 

 One of the most exaggerated show Cornish I have ever seen (Lewis Strait bird owned by Zelotes Eshmeyer) was incredibly huge with a head that looked unreal, but I knew the bird could breed cuz he was so aggressive and could move so fast that I refused to judge him. Any bird that big and that fast could certainly breed....and do major damage to me. I tried all the tricks I use to grab a mean bird but this thing was just too big and too fast to get a hold on without some serious damage to my hands. Any bird that could move like that and have that kind of vigor should not have a problem with a direct deposit.....so to speak.

 

walt

Now there is name I have not thought of in a good while, Zelotes Eshmyer. I can picture him set up at shows selling the nice wood travel cages he made. 

Lewis Strait on the other hand seems to come up in conversation fairly regularly.  Throw in Charlie Hurd, along with my Dad, and you have the main components of many serious Cornish discussions past.