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What exactly does breed for resistance mean? - Page 7

post #61 of 213
Quote:
Originally Posted by kathyinmo 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ruth 

Of course, if anyone has any sickness in their flock or has had any prior to sales of chicks and/or hatching eggs, they should notify any potential buyer because even though the survivors may not have shown sign of the illness they could still be carriers in that they were exposed and now they are bringing it into your flock.  Same way people are contaminating their entire flocks just by going to a show or even the feed store.


SO, by going to a show or the feed store .... everyone is at risk. Go to the feed store, then sell chicks you hatched a couple weeks prior, and not knowingly you have sold potentially sick chicks. Correct?

This is sooooooo confusing to me. Resistance or immunization, such a tough decision!


There are some great speeches and videos of Joel Salatin on Youtube. He and his farm (PolyFace Farm) have been my inspiration.

Here's a link to his website:

http://www.polyfacefarms.com

For those that haven't heard of him - it's worth the research.  He talks about how his farm is always open to visitors and how they don't have to change their clothes or step in bleach or chemicals in order to walk around his farm because his animals are naturally healthy, being raised on pasture and not chemicals.

post #62 of 213
Quote:
Originally Posted by snowbird 
Quote:
Originally Posted by gogoalie 
Quote:
Originally Posted by speckledhen 

Resistance means they DO NOT get sick because of their strong immune systems.


Resistance does mean the bird gets sick, doesn't die from the sickness, & pass on the genes that they carry, that made them survive in the first place...


If your fowl gets sick from Mareks, Laryngo or Coryza  and survive they will most likely be carriers of the disease.


Hence the reason for my second post. Likewise, if those that do survive, that gene will be passed onto their offspring, makin' them more resistant to the disease.

Being a "carrier" genetically speaking, doesn't mean that they will still "carry" a disease, it that they carry a strong gene that helped them survive the disease.

But I fully understand the context of which you've used it, & how it's being used in this thread.

Conservative agnostic, Rooster to three hens, an Australorp, Cukoo Maran, Bhrama & a Dom X Roo...& now, 12 hatched chicks
Dear Pat Robertson, it's only if you rape angels that God's gunna destroy us...so just STHU!!! XO
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DY4tBg8mAQo
No matter what I do, no matter what I say, I love you a Latte!
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Conservative agnostic, Rooster to three hens, an Australorp, Cukoo Maran, Bhrama & a Dom X Roo...& now, 12 hatched chicks
Dear Pat Robertson, it's only if you rape angels that God's gunna destroy us...so just STHU!!! XO
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DY4tBg8mAQo
No matter what I do, no matter what I say, I love you a Latte!
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post #63 of 213
Quote:
Originally Posted by kathyinmo 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ruth 
Quote:
Originally Posted by kathyinmo 


Yes, I understand that part (kill the sick ones). The part I don't understand is the ones that do not get sick .... are they carriers or resistant (because they have obviously been exposed, right?)?


In my way of looking at it - they could be either.  I don't vaccinate because I have over 300 different birds of all ages, breeds, and sizes running around.  I would be spending every waking moment vaccinating.  DH and I are at the feed store daily.  From what I've read, people track home diseases from there, hence they are the carriers.  I can't possibly vaccinate my flocks from every potential "bug" that might get tracked back to the farm so my flocks and herds need to develop as much natural immunity as possible.  If not, I guess they are goners if a real disease hits.

But, as I posted earlier, I already know something is different about my animals.  My uncle & cousin raise meat goats.  They are now having to use a really high potency chemical wormer, every month now just to keep them alive.  I don't even want to think about what's in the meat and people buy his goats to eat.  But I've never wormed mine.  The difference is most likely that his are kept in a fenced area and mine are roaming the woods and pastures at will.  To me, I'm breeding for natural resistance.


My opinion is that worms and cocci are not, "diseases." I will always treat for these 2 things. Just as I will treat for any parasites (lice or mites). I dust my birds with poultry dust every couple months or so, and sprinkle it in the bedding and dusting holes. I don't believe there is "resistance," to these things, as far as I know. Just like humans can get head lice, there wouldn't be resistance.


Of course worms and cocci are different from "diseases" I was just using it as an example.  However, the same applies to the wormers - they are potent chemicals (POISONS) and eventually cease to work and you have to switch to something stronger and/or more frequent because the worms build up a resistance.

Naturally healthy animals can resist worms, parasites, and disease better than sick/weak animals.

By the way, I'm loving this discussion.  Not vaccinating, especially my dear little goats, is something I've struggled with, but, for now, it's the decision I've made.

post #64 of 213
Quote:
Originally Posted by ruth 

For me it also means no vaccinations, no worming, no antibiotics, unless warranted (an animal is sick and can be treated) - in other words, I try to run as natural and organic a farm as possible.  I have goats, chickens, ducks, peacocks, guineas, geese, cats and dogs all running around the farm together - totally freerange - no fences.  The ducks and chickens eat the goat poop - and everything eats the chicken poop.  From most things I've read that would be a number one "no no".  But I don't vaccinate any of the animals and I don't use wormers (other than when I see tape worm segments in dog poop, for example) and when an animal is sick I don't have the heart to cull it but I will isolate it and give whatever treatments I think might save it - including antibiotics.  Luckily, I'm not seeing the same illnesses and issues I saw that first year here on the farm where I was constantly adding new chickens.  It seems every creature here is now just naturally more resistant to everything.  Of course, I have no idea if this method would work on some of the truly fatal diseases I've read about but I do know that for the past year or more everything has been healthy.

I've heard from goat breeders that they have to worm their goats every three months and they are still dying of worms and from peacock breeders who worm at least twice a year alternating wormers - and yet I don't worm either one and have not had a problem.  I pray I don't live to regret my decisions but so far it seems to be working for me and my animals. Baby chicks and other hatchlings are turned loose at a week or two old and learn to run the farm with everyone else.  I will occasionally find a dead chick in the coop or yard that did not seem sick prior and doesn't show any sign of injury and I never really know what happened to it but those that survive grow big and strong.

For the record, we have probably 300 chickens, 40 ducks, 20+ goats, 6 peafowl, 6 dogs - so the headcount is way up there and everyone is exposed to everything and it's rare that any of them get "sick" - injured yes, but sick, no.  I do think my "system" only works because the animals are not penned up in their own waste and droppings and all animals can get to fresh pasture and browse and forage for real food.  I don't think it would work for animals that must be kept penned up.  I even let my breeder birds out of pens and rotate who goes in breeder pens and for how long.

So, for me, natural is better and builds resistance.


I just wanted to comment on what you said about people worming goats every 3 months and their goats are still dying from worms. It is because the worms are getting resistant to the worm medicines. Horses have this issue also. It has been recommended for years to always rotate the type (not just the brand name) of wormer that you use. This was supposed to help prevent worms from getting resistant. However, it is starting to happen anyway, I guess because not everyone does rotate, but keeps using the same wormer all the time. Anyway, now equine vets are recommending doing a stool analysis to see exactly what worms your horse has before you treat it. That way you are targeting the right worm with the right medicine. This will delay the inevitable for a time, but not forever. Worms will eventually get resistant to every worm medication on the market. I don't know what will happen then, I just hope it's not in my horse's lifetime.

Mom to 3 sons, 2 horses, 1 Chesapeake, 2 BO's, 1 SLW, and 7 refrigerator chicks (eggs hatched after being refrigerated), they are 5 SLW's and 2 BO/SLW crosses.
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Mom to 3 sons, 2 horses, 1 Chesapeake, 2 BO's, 1 SLW, and 7 refrigerator chicks (eggs hatched after being refrigerated), they are 5 SLW's and 2 BO/SLW crosses.
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post #65 of 213
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by gogoalie 
Quote:
Originally Posted by speckledhen 

Resistance means they DO NOT get sick because of their strong immune systems.


Resistance does mean the bird gets sick, doesn't die from the sickness, & pass on the genes that they carry, that made them survive in the first place...


Quote:
Originally Posted by gogoalie 

Kathy, keep in mind, I didn't know that a bird, once recovered, could contaminate again, with original sickness, that that bird recovered from, if that's the case, then you'll hafta keep that bird & any subsequent birds, that do get sick, & recover, quaranteened from the rest of yer flock. If they're bred, you'll need to remove the eggs immediatly, & incubate them seperatly, & also keep them away from the non sick birds to ensure that they too aren't carriers, with the disease passed on from mother to chick.

With that, you're breeding for resistance. It's Darwin's Theory in practice.

Immediate culling from the flock of those that aren't sick, is just artificial selection.


Immediate culling from the flock of those that aren't sick, is just artificial selection .... yes, I agree. So, that isn't really breeding for resistance then, is it? Hhmmmmm, decisions, decisions.

All this because I am trying to decide if I should begin a vaccination program. th


Edited by kathyinmo - 9/16/10 at 2:40pm

RIP my son, Michael Bonham, Jr. 1972-2013

A son, brother, friend, wrestler, father, Army Airborne Ranger, wrestling coach, and so much more....

A memorial video with some of his (too short) life HERE.

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RIP my son, Michael Bonham, Jr. 1972-2013

A son, brother, friend, wrestler, father, Army Airborne Ranger, wrestling coach, and so much more....

A memorial video with some of his (too short) life HERE.

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post #66 of 213

"Worms will eventually get resistant to every worm medication on the market. I don't know what will happen then," Do it the old fasioned way, breed them for resistance...big_smile

Conservative agnostic, Rooster to three hens, an Australorp, Cukoo Maran, Bhrama & a Dom X Roo...& now, 12 hatched chicks
Dear Pat Robertson, it's only if you rape angels that God's gunna destroy us...so just STHU!!! XO
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DY4tBg8mAQo
No matter what I do, no matter what I say, I love you a Latte!
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Conservative agnostic, Rooster to three hens, an Australorp, Cukoo Maran, Bhrama & a Dom X Roo...& now, 12 hatched chicks
Dear Pat Robertson, it's only if you rape angels that God's gunna destroy us...so just STHU!!! XO
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DY4tBg8mAQo
No matter what I do, no matter what I say, I love you a Latte!
Reply
post #67 of 213

"So, that isn't really breeding for resistance then, is it?" Nope...

Conservative agnostic, Rooster to three hens, an Australorp, Cukoo Maran, Bhrama & a Dom X Roo...& now, 12 hatched chicks
Dear Pat Robertson, it's only if you rape angels that God's gunna destroy us...so just STHU!!! XO
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DY4tBg8mAQo
No matter what I do, no matter what I say, I love you a Latte!
Reply
Conservative agnostic, Rooster to three hens, an Australorp, Cukoo Maran, Bhrama & a Dom X Roo...& now, 12 hatched chicks
Dear Pat Robertson, it's only if you rape angels that God's gunna destroy us...so just STHU!!! XO
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DY4tBg8mAQo
No matter what I do, no matter what I say, I love you a Latte!
Reply
post #68 of 213
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by snowbird 

I think the Coryza is called by not bleaching the water containers, I bleach my container once a week in 16-1 bleach water.


Really? I did not know this. I am still learning. I thought Coryza was just another respiratory disease like the others I have heard of.

I do bleach my waterers weekly, but not always my feeders. Maybe I better start doing that to my feeders, too.  Actually, I use Oxine, not bleach.

RIP my son, Michael Bonham, Jr. 1972-2013

A son, brother, friend, wrestler, father, Army Airborne Ranger, wrestling coach, and so much more....

A memorial video with some of his (too short) life HERE.

Reply

RIP my son, Michael Bonham, Jr. 1972-2013

A son, brother, friend, wrestler, father, Army Airborne Ranger, wrestling coach, and so much more....

A memorial video with some of his (too short) life HERE.

Reply
post #69 of 213

I use oxine in my waterers...

I will enter Your gates with thanksgiving in my heart; I will enter Your courts with praise...Psalm 100:4

Chickens: W/BW Ameraucanas, Buckeyes and EEs

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I will enter Your gates with thanksgiving in my heart; I will enter Your courts with praise...Psalm 100:4

Chickens: W/BW Ameraucanas, Buckeyes and EEs

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post #70 of 213

I feel over medicating in all areas of life has gotten to the point of rediculous.  The other week my friend went to the doctor for a routine check up and she has been feeling a bit under the weather, a cold.  And the Doc was quick to prescribe Antibiotics.   Many, once the feel better, get rid of their unused meds in the toilet.  There is so much in our water supply it is helping creating newer and less resistant strains that Antibiotics can not fight.  You see the same in the Frontline Dog meds for fleas.   I finally got a rep to admit that fleas can and do become resistant to their Frontline.  And I should every 6 months switch to the other brand which uses a different active ingredient to stop and kill fleas.  So that is the same in Poultry.  We just need to build chickens who can live side by side with a sick or carrier bird and not show the symptoms and die.  The idea that not showing or going to a show will prevent your birds from getting sick is  a bit extreme.  IF your bird will get sick cause you went to the show and brought back some disease, it is likely, unless you keep your chickens in a hospital sterilized coop and pens and walk in with booties and masks, your bird will get a stray turd fall from the sky from a wild bird who has all this shtuff in them, and then get sick.  Making birds by selective breeding of lines within a breed and or outcross breeding to make a healthier bird is making a resistant bird.  In my opinion and very limited experience and readings on this subject.  I like to think the reason I hadn't had a bird flop since last year due to disease, and it may have been more likely the stupid bird eating some glass, is cause I do not follow the line breeding system and seek out a variety of breeder's lines within the few breeds I raise.   And IF I do ever see a bird which appears to be sick, it better be the Holy Grail of birds or it will get whacked cause I already have more to choose from who aren't sick.  Variety is the spice of life.  Maybe that was said to encourage outcross breedings in more then just humans.  lolololo

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