Beating a dead horse *Changed to Breeding Project Talk Update Post 71* - Page 4

Maybe it's because white is the color of mourning and death in most of Asia.

My Freedom Rangers (JM Hatchery) had wonderful personality. I still regret that I wasn't able to keep a couple just for the heck of it. I had them processed in July, and now in October, with a new batch of Dorking chicks, I still kind of wish I had a few of the FRs. They were really nice birds, and very handsome. We processed at 12 weeks and most were 6 to 6 1/2 lbs dressed. A couple in the 5 - 6 range, several over 6 1/2 to 7 3/4 lbs. Very tasty, lots of meat. Beautiful birds, with or without their feathers!

Part of the debate is about the definition of "sustainable". To me, a sustainable flock is just one that can reproduce its self without buying new chicks every year. To this end, I looked for a "triple purpose" breed - meat, eggs, and broody hens to raise the next generation. I have an eye toward the future of my flock, too - I want to be fairly sure that the chickens I have now will produce consistent replicas of themselves in terms of meat, eggs, and broodiness for years to come. So for me, any hybrid is not an option. That would just be too darn much work. I finally decided on Dorkings, and not from a large commercial hatchery...I sure hope it works out the way I want. The chicks are four weeks old today, so we'll see how it goes....

The problem with sustainable breeds is the need to find new stock or "blood" every few years to keep your project healthy. I truly believe the reason why so many DP breeds are so scrawny today compared to their ancestors from the early 1900's is the fact of inbreeding. Hatcheries ruined the average DP breed especially in the last 20 years. Think about it.... there is only so many Rhode Island Reds or Barred Rocks.... ect.... and when big hatcheries come in and buy up stock from everywhere they pay no attention to bloodlines. Over the course of 10 years you have completely genetically ruined a breed if you didn't select for traits of that birds originality. For instance hatcheries don't breed for egg laying abilities any more than the breed for meat capabilities. They simply hatch out the amount of females they need and males and that's the end of it. Bottom line is they need chicks to sell, they don't have time to go and feel each hen / cock for deformities or flexibility of the hens pelvic bones. They don't trap nest to see who's laying ect.

Because of the lack of culling in hatcheries you now have thousands of flocks around the country that are just average birds.... however you start looking at peoples "mutt chickens" and you notice a pattern. It seems that the lack of genetic diversity in pure breeds goes away when you outcross to another breed. Which gives you a "crossbreed" not a hybrid. Hybrid is an overused term in chickens and shouldn't be used to describe any crossbreed including the commercial layers and the broilers. A hybrid would be like a pekin and a muscovies offspring.... they would be considered hybrids. Anyhow it's irrelevant.

When it comes to beating this horse.... your going to get the same results. If you want meat fast, want your moneys worth, don't have much time, busy with other projects, or if you will be dissatisfied with lack of meat from a DP then go with the cornish x.... If none of these really matter to you, then raise what you want. But if your looking into one specific breed to make your needs worth while.... I would go with a hen from a DP breed that lays well and has a heavy/thick body and go with a rooster from a different breed and cross the two. The two flocks that you keep do not even have to be pure breeds.... just keep the different bloodlines. Break away from the best breed for meat theory.... because there is none. All of them have their ups and their downs.... If you look at the commercial broiler, layer and even the colored / freedom rangers they have one thing in common.... they are ALL crossbreeds. Why? Well it's simple, when you cross two breeds their offspring will always out preform their pure breed parents.... every time, with very few exceptions.


Good crosses to to start with? Well that should be the question to ask.....

just that all white farm animals on the property make me think of processed stuff, and I prefer to look at color

Summed it up perfectly for me.

Jeff I think your right and a cross might be something.  For the small time backyard person who wants a "sustainable flock" I think its worth looking into more.  I've kicked around a few ideas and I guess its time to share them.  I'm on that same mythical quest for a good breed that will give me what I want at in a reasonable time frame.  I've been reading on what some other folks are doing with CX and breeding and I mentioned on this thread I think about the Red Broiler X RIR or NH since I'm not a fan of white.

I've also thought very seriously about a Buckeye x NH cross could be a great small farm cross for good meat birds.  The Buckeye roo would give his size and bulk to his offspring while the NHs would give their fast rate of maturity and make it even faster because its a cross, plus NHs are strong layers so you'd have large brown eggs for the rest of the year.

I still like the person's idea who mentioned the Buckeye x Delaware cross and producing sex linked chicks.  Thats an idea with some real merit too.

It all works on paper obviously just like all the other ideas we have but I think your right we need to think outside the box more.

Now the other question is do you save any of the offspring for breeding stock?  Lets take the Buckeye x NH cross so colors not really an issue.  Would you keep making that cross till your NH hens production when down and then replace them with more NH hens to keep doing what works?  Or do you think it would be more beneficial to work with the crosses and see if you could stabilize the cross and get more consistancy with the generations to follow?

I raised red broilers this past spring from Ideal, I got the .99 deal for 30 birds.  Raised them to 14-15 weeks don't remember I used a custom 22% mash and they got to about 4-6lbs depending on if they were male or female.  I have a batch of 50 Kosher king cockerals right now and they will be ready the w/e of Thanksgiving.  So far they are about 2.5-3 lbs. so they are on track to be in the 6-7lb. range.  I have not lost any to health problems, next spring I may go with CX just to "save" some money on the feed bill.  My custom blend is most recently at $11.40 a bag so really not cost effective compared to going to the store and getting a free range chicken.

I disagree that it is lack of genetic diversity that has run these dual-purpose breeds into the ground, I think it is simply BAD BREEDING PRACTICES. Either not selecting at all and letting the bloodlines run willy nilly, or selecting for the wrong things or for one trait ONLY. Production strain RIR comes to mind on the latter.

Some of the best birds I have ever laid eyes on come from closed flocks that have had NO new blood introduced to them in 20+ years, BUT the breeder keeps different lines and breeds wisely, making improvements with every generation.

Linebreeding, when properly used, is your best friend when it comes to producing consistent animals, and if you start with GOOD animals, then you will consistently produce GOOD animals using a good linebreeding system. This goes for everything, from health and vigor to growth rates and laying abilities to type. Of course it's very difficult to constantly select for the best in ALL of these traits simultaneously, and it's a long, slow process, but the best one can do starting out is to get stock from a line that has already been working on it for YEARS and continue that work.

Outcrossing (between different lines of the same breed is the same as outcrossing between different breeds,) is a crap shoot. You will see great variation in the offspring, some good, some REALLY bad, and the only way to consistently reproduce the good specimens would be to start that linebreeding process all over again....

You know, I just wrote that out basing almost everything I said on what I know about rabbits and have learned from researching purebred Heritage breed chickens.

I don't know why I didn't think of it before.

Crossbreeding is a shabby attempt at a short-cut, I think the holy grail of the dual purpose, sustainable chicken we all want lies in finding a good breed that suits our needs, getting stock from a good breeder, and then selectively linebreeding for the traits we want. Work on the foundations that have already been laid instead of re-inventing the wheel, so to speak.

That's what ALBC did with the Buckeye and made TREMENDOUS gains in only a few years. Can you imagine how far we could get if we focused our energy on getting birds from existing lines and selecting, generation after generation, for the meatiest, fastest growing birds, and then culling again for laying ability after the hens started laying?  I think we could go a long way in a short while, with any existing breed we pick. Probably a lot faster than creating our own breeds and crosses!