Difficult! Silver wheaten questions for genetics experts!

Shamoman, there are golden wheatens, and silver wheatens. They can all be bred together. I understand there were originally stippled hens, but the males are the same.

Henk69 said:

A wheaten hen that carries dominant white looks like that...

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I believe that what doc meant is that the wheaten hens had a feather or two that came in white, not that the tail and wings were white. It makes perfect sense to me how the recessive white red Pyles were created. The sport could only have been recessive white (having both non white parents) and bred to non white it produced more non white BBReds with several solid white feathers. These(heterozygotes) bred back to the sport created more white. Proving that it was recessive and hidden under the black in the daughters. How the red bleeds thru the white is still a mystery but it is believable. I have a completely different line that had both Dom/rec white. White to BBRed gave half red Pyle and half BBRed. This is probably do to the mom being heterozygous for Dom white. However two of the BBReds were bred together and produce a white. I crossed the Pyles and some came out solid white. I would love to get rid of the brassiness, but the only option is a solid silver(no gold/red). The solid blues and blacks are both showing gold leakage in the hackles so they are gold based instead of silver. So by breeding to a silver wheaten the dominant white would cause a white bird, and the silver wheaten would dilute the red that causes brassiness.

I think I may have had a blue hen with silver instead of gold because a smoky chick was hatched that had no yellow, it was white and grey, unlike all the other smoky chicks that were yellow and grey. This may help too. Only time will tell.

As to duckwing based BBRed being the only option for red Pyle, this may be true for White Breasted Reds, but red and white is still possible on wheaten.
Example of wheaten + 1 gene Dom White + rec white
Result: still red Pyle.

Nothing to say.

Yes, we understand and know that. But as Cubalayas are a Wheaten based breed it only makes sense that the Red Pyles should have cinnamon Pyle hens regardless of what the Standard states for other Red Pyles. As there is no written description of the Red Pyle Cubalaya the female can come green with polka-dots and it really doesn't matter. I would love to see them standardized one day, but if they were I would only make such a request for cinnamon pyle hens.

Hi: I'm new! I think I saw a picture of a male bird that was similar to a golden duckwing, but had deep red across the back. I had a male like this one time and was looking for that gene. It is different than golden because I have had BB red males that had very dark backs, but when the silver gene appears in this strain it appears to bleach out the deep red to a lighter color as in golden. I think I saw the picture on this forum,but not sure. Can anyone help me?

Buffchickenbuff

These pullets are full sisters to the above cockerel. 1st picture at 7 months and
2nd picture at 3 months of age. The pullet in the back is blue wheaten.



Wheaten in OEGB do not have any stripping in their hackle. I was wondering if Wheatens could have stripping and it not be detrimental to the Wheaten color. Looking at Troyer's pictures again, gave me my answer. According to Troyer, the two pullets above are full sisters to the Light colored male (with stripping ) in his post. (I think it is on page 3 of this thread.) This confirms to me that Wheaten can have male stripping in the hackle of the male and the hens still be Wheaten. I know that the Wheaten in the Cubalaya is considered to be different than Wheaten in some other breeds, but I still think that it still appears that the stripping in the male hackle is compatible with the Wheaten color. Buffchickenbuff

Buffchickenbuff said:

Hi: I'm new! I think I saw a picture of a male bird that was similar to a golden duckwing, but had deep red across the back. I had a male like this one time and was looking for that gene. It is different than golden because I have had BB red males that had very dark backs, but when the silver gene appears in this strain it appears to bleach out the deep red to a lighter color as in golden. I think I saw the picture on this forum,but not sure. Can anyone help me?

Buffchickenbuff

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Genetics 101

I believe what was expressing the deep red color is autosomal red. The autosomal red is not easily recognized on a gold wheaten female but can be easily seen on columbian restricted silver females (see picture below), Two silver genes in a male only express white color in the pyle feathers. Any red pigment in the feathers is due another gene or genes- most likely autosomal red. Males that have a gold and a silver gene can express red but the amount of red is dependent upon the genetic make up of the bird. Other breeds that are a male golden variety can carry a silver and a gold gene.

Take for example the salmon faverolle. Faverolles carry some of the primary color genes that are found in a cubalaya. Faverolles are silver, wheaten and carry the dark gene. The dark gene produces he characteristic cinnamon color in female wheatens. Faverolles also carry autosomal red that is expressed in the male but not the female. This autosomal red appears to be sex limited ( do not confuse with sex linked).

To answer your question- yes there are genes that can cause a darker red color on the backs of gold males. If a bird is silver then the silver gene and the autosomal red gene work against each other producing a diluted red color.

This is a picture of a silver wheaten female- note she is a cream color. She carries genes that are causing the cream color- she should be white but she is not. I was not able to do experimental crosses to determine her specific genotype. I had other birds with a similar color.




This is what autosomal red looks like on a columbian restricted silver wheaten female. The amount of red can vary- I produced one female that had a red back and shoulders.



Tim

Thank you for the pictures and explanation. They helped. Since seeing the picture I mentioned I have seen other photos of Gold Cubalaya. They all had the deep red. I am not sure what the cinnamon color is. Fred Jeffery, in his book on bantams, and speaking of creating Red Pyle, refers to a "pumpkin" color on hens, could this be the cinnamon color?

Buffchickenbuff said:

Thank you for the pictures and explanation. They helped. Since seeing the picture I mentioned I have seen other photos of Gold Cubalaya. They all had the deep red. I am not sure what the cinnamon color is. Fred Jeffery, in his book on bantams, and speaking of creating Red Pyle, refers to a "pumpkin" color on hens, could this be the cinnamon color?

Click to expand...

Genetics 101

The cinnamon color is on game females ( cubalaya females are cinnamon colored) and is different than the color found on other breeds of wheaten females. Red pyle are actually gold duck wing and dominant white. Genetically they are wild type at the E locus, gold and dominant white. Many red pyle also carry autosomal red that makes the shoulders of the males a brighter red color.

The pumpkin color is expressed by the wheaten gene and the dark gene. The dominant white gene turns what would normally be black into white and does not effect the cinnamon color on the females. The combination effect of the white and cinnamon produces the pumpkin color. In other red pyles, the red in females is just diluted to a lighter red color and in the case of the breast the salmon color is diluted.

Red pyle wheaten females look different than wild type ( red duck wing/stippled) red pyle females. Males will look similar. It all has to do with the how the pigments are made on the cell level. The wheaten allele works differently than the wild type allele. Stuff on the cell level is complicated so I will not get into the biochemistry. Wild type females are a mixture of red and some variation of black pigment while wheaten females have very little black in their plumage. The dominant white gene removes almost all or all of the black and much of the black variants ( browns) leaving white and red. In the case of the wheaten female there are no black pigments to lighten you get some of the browns diluted to white and the diluted cinnamon or pumpkin color.

Tim