The Legbar Thread! - Page 65

 darn posting issues...sorry

Quote:

Originally Posted by GaryDean26 

The 7/8th blood rule is pretty standard for live stock registries.  The requirements vary though. 

 

 For example a French Alpine Dairy Goat that is crossed out to a not French Alpine goat has to be bread back to registered Alpine goats until it reached the 7/8 Alpine blood to again gain membership in the registered Alpine Herd.  At that point they cannot be registered as a French Alpine though.  They are designated as an American Alpine to indicate that they meet all the breed standards have registered breedings from parent and grandparent stock that meet all the breed standards, but that they are not of the pure French blood lines.  They American Alpines are usually and improvement on the French line for size, milk production, etc. but people still pay a premium for the pure French Lines because they know what they are getting that way.  And can start their own breeding program from a known point.

 

The kinder Goats are designated as an open herd which mean you can still create the bread from scratch and register it.  The First cross is with a Pygmy Meat Goat and a Nubian Dairy goat.  The cross produced a medium sized dual purpose goat. The first cross is called a 1st generation Kinder Goat.  Breeding two 1^st generation goat produces a 2^nd generation goats.  Two 2^nd generation produce a 3^rd generation and after the 6^th generation the new line is accepted into the heard as a Full Kinder.  How ever any breeding back to a Pygmy or Nubian is not allowed.  All selections have to be made from a Kinder goat after the original crossing.  And First generation can only be from full blood registered stock. 

Mini Dairy goats are also an open heard created from Dwarf Nigerian Dairy goat and a Full size Dairy goat.  they produce a medium sized Dairy goat, but the rules set up for that herd are different.  They allow you to breed back to the Dwarf Nigerian or Full sized dairy goat and actually prefer that the finished line be 60-75% blood from the full sized breed.

 

Since the Cream Legbar was accepted into British Poultry standards before 1950 it qualified as an English Heritage breed.  They would make it more like closed herd status of the French Alpine.  Breeding it to anything else you can never get back to the "French" Alpine Status.  The new blood line is an "American" Alpine.

 

Like the Kinder and Miniature Dairy Goats the Cream legbar needs to have a balance between the foundation breeds (i.e 50% for the Kinder is required and 60-75% required for the mini dairy goats).  Because I don't know what % each of the foundation breeds are in the Cream Legbar lets say 25% Plymoth Rock, 50% Leghorn, and 25% Chilean Hen (note: the Chilean Hens were never called Araucanas but the Cambrige Breeding program and were NOT the source of the Auracanas in the UK.  The British Araucana breed was developed from unrelated stock that came later to the UK on trade ships).

 

 If those percentages make up a Cream Legbar and we breed back to a Leghorn a couple of time we end up with something more like 10% - 80% - 10% which despite the outwards appearance would not be the same thing as you started with.  It is the same way a once a French Alpine is crossed out is can never regain the French Line status, crossing out a Cream Legbar to any other breed would disqualify its English Heritage Breed Status.  

 

 

 

I feel like this is comparing apples to oranges...I know nothing of goats so please bear with me, is there a breed that was used to create the French Alpine that could be used as the cross out? if not then I don't think this analogy relates

by using one of the foundation breeds to improve the comb(for example) once and then breed back into the line.......won't that reduce the introduced breed to a negligible percentage over time? I really haven't had time to research the thing I am looking for and I wouldn't even be able to put energy into this project until next year, but I guess I don't see things the same way.

I have just see so many issues with linebreeding(in show dogs) and even owned a close relative of the #1 dog a few years ago but the problems this boy had from intensive linebreeding was horrible. I can't seem to get it out of my head that this breed(and many others with limited gene pools) will suffer the same fate if something is not done.

well, like I said before, mine will remain pure and I will cull heavily. I will maintain a control group and definitely note any problems I find over the generations. I am also looking forward to conducting my own research on this issue. Until then I will follow along and enjoy my birds

2 of my girls at 4 1/2 weeks are showing the beginning signs of crests.  The largest of the boys has a very fluffy head.  

I wanted to post a pic of the eggs my girls lay, this is not a great pic because the flash washes the color out somewhat(same as with the ameraucana eggs)

the two right below the black/gray egg are from my cream legbars and the two below those are from my Paul Smith ameraucana which have a nice blue color. the green egg to the right of the ameraucana eggs is from my araucana and it is green. so the legbar eggs are very similar to my ameraucana eggs. i will try to get pics somewhere it can be seen better. like I said, not great but gives you an idea...

Quote:

Originally Posted by nthehunt 

I've experienced the same thing with coonhounds too much and too close linebreeding soon turns into in-breeding, conformation and behavior will eventually suffer, I once had a lady call and ask if I had a roo for sale, she exclaim she was desperate. I took her the rooster, she had about 30 grown chickens, she said she had started with one pair several years ago and had not brought in any new blood, her most resent hatch resulted in 12 beautiful chicks with the exception the all were hatched will nubs for feet, zero toes on any of the 12.

 this is not the first time I have heard of this. I had a similar situation with some I hatched. I had got some (specific breed) eggs from a very reputable person in that breed, he was now a lot older and hadn't introduced any new blood in a long time. I hatched some of his birds and I noticed some of the problems that happen with too much inbreeding, the toe thing seems to be a common thing. A couple of them were missing parts of toes, not at drastic as no toes at all, but not good none-the-less. There were a few other issues with their combs being deformed but I was new and wasn't that familiar with the breed. I did contact him about the issues I had with the chicks and that is when he told me it was time for him to introduce new blood because he was noticing the same thing at home. He didn't exhibit much anymore and was just using them for selling eating eggs. It wasn't until a younger man started helping him around the farm and took on the breeding again that it was noticed.

I just think we need to be careful

eta- One thing I do know is if they start to hatch missing toenails it will get progressively worse, so that may be something to keep an eye on.

Nice eggs, nice colors.  Thanks for the picture.

Flying & GaryDean, 

Thanks for information on the cream.  Now I am beginning to grasp it.  

Quote:

Originally Posted by klf73 

 this is not the first time I have heard of this. I had a similar situation with some I hatched. I had got some (specific breed) eggs from a very reputable person in that breed, he was now a lot older and hadn't introduced any new blood in a long time. I hatched some of his birds and I noticed some of the problems that happen with too much inbreeding, the toe thing seems to be a common thing. A couple of them were missing parts of toes, not at drastic as no toes at all, but not good none-the-less. There were a few other issues with their combs being deformed but I was new and wasn't that familiar with the breed. I did contact him about the issues I had with the chicks and that is when he told me it was time for him to introduce new blood because he was noticing the same thing at home. He didn't exhibit much anymore and was just using them for selling eating eggs. It wasn't until a younger man started helping him around the farm and took on the breeding again that it was noticed.

 

I just think we need to be careful

 

eta- One thing I do know is if they start to hatch missing toenails it will get progressively worse, so that may be something to keep an eye on.

Hmm, this is very interesting.  I purchased hatching eggs for (specific breed) from (BYC member) and several of them hatched with one missing toe on on each foot.  Interestingly, it is the same toe on both feet and the same toe on every bird effected.  The seller of course denied having any problems with their breeding stock.  Being new and ignorant to chickens, I thought it was just "one of those things."
 

Quote:

Originally Posted by klf73 

 

 

I feel like this is comparing apples to oranges...

 

Ya, I knew that everyone wouldn't follow the goat comparisons.  I just used them because they have witten rules and regiseries to govern their breeding and manage the breeds.  I can see see that try to compare Cream Legbars to dogs, cattle, horses, goats, or even other chichen breeds is going to be a strech in some ways.  It looks like I am past my knowledge on this one, so I will bow out. 

I am not concerend about the limited genetics pools.  Some of the cock fighting breeders were able to maintain flocks for as long as 35 years with excelent results. Some one at the beginning of this thread said that they took a live stock management class that learned that with three blood lines that you can sustain livestock without running up against a wall genetically.  I have a good start and am going to be following the same type of breeding plan.

Good Luck everyone.  You all have what I think is one of the most intresting breeds around.   If any of you have questions you know where to find me.