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post #21 of 132
Quote:
Originally Posted by ColbyNTX 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ParrotsNPullets 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ibeier2000 

Or is the OP talking about Frontline for fleas for cats and dogs????  hu


Some people use it... but it's not labeled for Poultry and only works if applied directly to the skin. That's because this medication is carried in the bloodstream. That pretty much rules out meaties & egg layers for human consumption. And that's not even getting into the potentially dangerous effects to the birds themselves... Oh and did I mention it's VERY expensive along with all that risk? Yeah... dust/DE sound great don't they? tongue


Frontline\\ Frontline Plus for fleas and ticks is not carried in the bloodstream!  That is why it is an EPA regestered product not an FDA.  If it goes in the bloodstream then it is FDA.  It is carried to the oil glands by the oils on the body.  I worked for the company, Merial who makes it for 11 years so i'm not just guessing.  I know about all there is to know about fipronil.  No harm to mamals.  I have known many vets who have used the spray to treat head lice in kids.  I'm not suggesting you do that but it has been done.


My two Polish hens had awful poultry head lice.  I tried DE and Poultry Dust (permethrin) and cleaning the coop over and over with little effect.  After reading the above post and several others that said that their vet had recommended it or that their vet was USING it, I decided to test the Frontline concentrate, even if it's an off-label use.  Here's my reasoning:

- Permethrin's an insecticide. It says to put it on the hens and in their coop but not on the food or in the nest boxes. Well, if it's in the coop and on the hen, it's getting into the food and the nest box.  The hens are rolling in permethrin dust all the time. 

- Before products like Frontline, we used to have a flea collar on the dog.  It meant the dog was in a cloud of insecticide all the time too, and when it wore off, we were back to a flea party.  I thanked God for Frontline on the dog and cats. 

- The Frontline web site says it works by accumulating in the oil glands of the mammal. 

- Here's a technical fact sheet on fipronil. It says it is fatal to bobwhite quail, and has no effect at all on mallard ducks, but that's based on ingestion. A 79% solution was applied to the skin of a rat, and only 1%  got absorbed within 24 hours at ALL doses tested.  Evidence on cats and dogs  "found that radio-labeled fipronil was distributed primarily in the superficial skin layers. Radio-labeled fipronil was not detected in the dermis or the hypodermis (adipose tissue).22"

OK. So: Since it's used in agriculture; it's safe for pregnant and lactating dogs and cats; evidence is it stays in the skin; ill effects have been noted from ingestion but not topical use; my hens looked utterly moth eaten: I put a drop on the head of two hens. 

Mites died, hens lived, no change in skin or behavior.  I'm going to use it monthly until winter, one or two drops per hen. I put it on the head since they can't get their beaks into it there.

As far as eating the eggs goes:  I'm taking my chances on them, because they haven't been rolled in permethrin, and fipronil isn't going through the hens' bloodstreams.  If I wanted to be super cautious, I'd throw out any egg laid 24-36 hours after application. 

BTW, I'm not eating the meat of my chickens, but:  The same technical fact sheet tested 655 chickens for evidence of fipronil in the tissues (since it's used agriculturally, etc., to see if it's in the food supply), and "One poultry breast (0.2%) and 2 poultry thighs (0.3%) had detectible levels of fipronil. No samples contained residues that exceeded the established U.S. EPA tolerances.29".  I probably wouldn't eat the meat of hens directly dosed with Frontline, but I'm ok with the eggs.

I do hope they approve it for topical use on domestic poultry.  I'll let you guys know what I notice over longer term use. 

Peigi

p.s. I'm not bothering with the spray since it uses the exact same chemical at a lower dose, and I figure trying to spray it all over a hen would involve losing most of it into the air, breathing some of it, and less control over the dose anyway.

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post #22 of 132
Quote:
Originally Posted by peigic 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ColbyNTX 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ParrotsNPullets 


Some people use it... but it's not labeled for Poultry and only works if applied directly to the skin. That's because this medication is carried in the bloodstream. That pretty much rules out meaties & egg layers for human consumption. And that's not even getting into the potentially dangerous effects to the birds themselves... Oh and did I mention it's VERY expensive along with all that risk? Yeah... dust/DE sound great don't they? tongue


Frontline\\ Frontline Plus for fleas and ticks is not carried in the bloodstream!  That is why it is an EPA regestered product not an FDA.  If it goes in the bloodstream then it is FDA.  It is carried to the oil glands by the oils on the body.  I worked for the company, Merial who makes it for 11 years so i'm not just guessing.  I know about all there is to know about fipronil.  No harm to mamals.  I have known many vets who have used the spray to treat head lice in kids.  I'm not suggesting you do that but it has been done.


My two Polish hens had awful poultry head lice.  I tried DE and Poultry Dust (permethrin) and cleaning the coop over and over with little effect.  After reading the above post and several others that said that their vet had recommended it or that their vet was USING it, I decided to test the Frontline concentrate, even if it's an off-label use.  Here's my reasoning:

- Permethrin's an insecticide. It says to put it on the hens and in their coop but not on the food or in the nest boxes. Well, if it's in the coop and on the hen, it's getting into the food and the nest box.  The hens are rolling in permethrin dust all the time. 

- Before products like Frontline, we used to have a flea collar on the dog.  It meant the dog was in a cloud of insecticide all the time too, and when it wore off, we were back to a flea party.  I thanked God for Frontline on the dog and cats. 

- The Frontline web site says it works by accumulating in the oil glands of the mammal. 

- Here's a technical fact sheet on fipronil. It says it is fatal to bobwhite quail, and has no effect at all on mallard ducks, but that's based on ingestion. A 79% solution was applied to the skin of a rat, and only 1%  got absorbed within 24 hours at ALL doses tested.  Evidence on cats and dogs  "found that radio-labeled fipronil was distributed primarily in the superficial skin layers. Radio-labeled fipronil was not detected in the dermis or the hypodermis (adipose tissue).22"

OK. So: Since it's used in agriculture; it's safe for pregnant and lactating dogs and cats; evidence is it stays in the skin; ill effects have been noted from ingestion but not topical use; my hens looked utterly moth eaten: I put a drop on the head of two hens. 

Mites died, hens lived, no change in skin or behavior.  I'm going to use it monthly until winter, one or two drops per hen. I put it on the head since they can't get their beaks into it there.

As far as eating the eggs goes:  I'm taking my chances on them, because they haven't been rolled in permethrin, and fipronil isn't going through the hens' bloodstreams.  If I wanted to be super cautious, I'd throw out any egg laid 24-36 hours after application. 

BTW, I'm not eating the meat of my chickens, but:  The same technical fact sheet tested 655 chickens for evidence of fipronil in the tissues (since it's used agriculturally, etc., to see if it's in the food supply), and "One poultry breast (0.2%) and 2 poultry thighs (0.3%) had detectible levels of fipronil. No samples contained residues that exceeded the established U.S. EPA tolerances.29".  I probably wouldn't eat the meat of hens directly dosed with Frontline, but I'm ok with the eggs.

I do hope they approve it for topical use on domestic poultry.  I'll let you guys know what I notice over longer term use. 

Peigi

p.s. I'm not bothering with the spray since it uses the exact same chemical at a lower dose, and I figure trying to spray it all over a hen would involve losing most of it into the air, breathing some of it, and less control over the dose anyway.


Wow, thanks for the great breakdown and explanation!  A few questions - Did you buy dog or cat Frontline?  Can it be purchased any other way than in the little plastic vials that you break the top off of?

"Dear Father hear and bless thy beasts and singing birds and guard with tenderness small things that have no words."
3 Chinese Cresteds, 3 cats, 1 Severe Macaw, Ameracanas/Easter Eggers, ISA Browns, Barred Rocks, French Black Copper Marans, Barnyard Mutts

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"Dear Father hear and bless thy beasts and singing birds and guard with tenderness small things that have no words."
3 Chinese Cresteds, 3 cats, 1 Severe Macaw, Ameracanas/Easter Eggers, ISA Browns, Barred Rocks, French Black Copper Marans, Barnyard Mutts

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post #23 of 132

I too would like to know cat or dog. I have a louse issue. Would rather use frontline then dust them down in sevin dust

Home of Watermark Seramas. First babies have already hatched!

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Home of Watermark Seramas. First babies have already hatched!

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post #24 of 132

I used dog.  I used the little plastic snap-open package it came in, and am storing the rest in a small dropper vial. I put 1-2 drops on the head of a 4-lb polish hen. 

The web site says the product does not expire when stored in its packaging at room temperature, so I'm assuming (again) that it will be ok at least in the short term stored in a closed vial. (I made this decision based on the fact that the spray lasts at room temperature stored inside of a spray bottle; but it's in a substrate.)

Please note, I admit I'm totally using Frontline:

- on an animal that it's not labeled for use on,
- administering a guess of a dose, and
- storing the leftover product in a way I made up. 

If I end up with a yard of chickens with their legs in the air, I'll let you know. So far it's only the mites that are dead. hmm

Peigi


Edited by peigic - 6/3/11 at 11:06am
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post #25 of 132
Quote:
Originally Posted by peigic 

I used dog.  I used the little plastic snap-open package it came in, and am storing the rest in a small dropper vial. I put 1-2 drops on the head of a 4-lb polish hen. 

The web site says the product does not expire when stored in its packaging at room temperature, so I'm assuming (again) that it will be ok at least in the short term stored in a closed vial. (I made this decision based on the fact that the spray lasts at room temperature stored inside of a spray bottle; but it's in a substrate.)

Please note, I admit I'm totally using Frontline:

- on an animal that it's not labeled for use on,
- administering a guess of a dose, and
- storing the leftover product in a way I made up. 

If I end up with a yard of chickens with their legs in the air, I'll let you know. So far it's only the mites that are dead. hmm

Peigi


Thanks for being so up front with your use of this Peigi.  I have read that many people use Frontline but I could never get any specific answers when I asked.  I ordered some Frontline on eBay for my small dog and got it cheaper by buying a large dog vial that came with a dropper and a small glass vial to keep the extra in.  I'm keeping it in a dark cool cupboard and think also that it should last for the short term I will keep it.  I'm going to try it on my chickens as well; I don't eat my girls, just the eggs, so I'm not worried.  I don't have a mite problem, but I do worry about ticks as my chickens free range in the woods and marsh all day.    Thanks again!
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Edited by Chickmate - 6/3/11 at 11:51am

"Dear Father hear and bless thy beasts and singing birds and guard with tenderness small things that have no words."
3 Chinese Cresteds, 3 cats, 1 Severe Macaw, Ameracanas/Easter Eggers, ISA Browns, Barred Rocks, French Black Copper Marans, Barnyard Mutts

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"Dear Father hear and bless thy beasts and singing birds and guard with tenderness small things that have no words."
3 Chinese Cresteds, 3 cats, 1 Severe Macaw, Ameracanas/Easter Eggers, ISA Browns, Barred Rocks, French Black Copper Marans, Barnyard Mutts

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post #26 of 132

I ordered the large spray bottle the is 1 spray per pound of animal from an online vet supply company.  It was about $60 and it is going to last me a while. I did a spray under the vent, under each wing and at the back of the neck. Worked like charm and I am going to keep using it.

Raising Call Ducks, Silkies, Black Copper Marans, Blue Wheaten Ameraucana and Easter Eggers in rural New Jersey.
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Raising Call Ducks, Silkies, Black Copper Marans, Blue Wheaten Ameraucana and Easter Eggers in rural New Jersey.
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post #27 of 132

So the dog-type that folks are using is for SMALL dogs?  I ask because (murphy's law) I have frontline for Large dogs (50-85 lbs) Figures!

Do you think I could use this Large dog type and put it on less places, say just at the vent and on top of head (They are mostly polish, pests in their crests is a battle) ?

kat - wife to Tim, mom to 3 kiddos (DS 22, DD 20, & DD 17 - the 4H member)  Our flock is made up of Polish, Silver Spangled Hamburgs, & a handful of brown egg layers- - avid quilter, canner, and homemaker :0)

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kat - wife to Tim, mom to 3 kiddos (DS 22, DD 20, & DD 17 - the 4H member)  Our flock is made up of Polish, Silver Spangled Hamburgs, & a handful of brown egg layers- - avid quilter, canner, and homemaker :0)

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post #28 of 132
Quote:
Originally Posted by calicokat 

So the dog-type that folks are using is for SMALL dogs?  I ask because (murphy's law) I have frontline for Large dogs (50-85 lbs) Figures!

Do you think I could use this Large dog type and put it on less places, say just at the vent and on top of head (They are mostly polish, pests in their crests is a battle) ?


Isn't the only difference in the large dog and small dog the size of the vial it comes in?  I don't think there is any difference in the Frontline itself.  I have three small dogs and I bought one vial of large dog Frontline for them off eBay.  Much cheaper!!  It came in the plastic vial and then I also got a small glass vial to keep the surplus in and syringe to apply it with.  It should last a small dog for three months.  So, I don't think it matters if it's for a large dog, it's all the same stuff just in different sized containers.  You should be OK applying it the same as everyone else. 
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"Dear Father hear and bless thy beasts and singing birds and guard with tenderness small things that have no words."
3 Chinese Cresteds, 3 cats, 1 Severe Macaw, Ameracanas/Easter Eggers, ISA Browns, Barred Rocks, French Black Copper Marans, Barnyard Mutts

Reply

"Dear Father hear and bless thy beasts and singing birds and guard with tenderness small things that have no words."
3 Chinese Cresteds, 3 cats, 1 Severe Macaw, Ameracanas/Easter Eggers, ISA Browns, Barred Rocks, French Black Copper Marans, Barnyard Mutts

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post #29 of 132
Quote:
Originally Posted by WoodlandWoman 

If I touch a dog that's been treated with Frontline, my hands turn red and swell up like balloons.  You can wash a dog, but it still keeps excreting it for a couple of months.  They use it at the local shelter and I can't even adopt from there anymore.  So are you saying I could eat eggs from a chicken that had this used on it and I wouldn't have a reaction, because there's no residue anywhere else in the body, except on the skin?


Not to undermind what you could pollibly have been told by your doctor...but animals in a shelter are not kept in the best of hygenic conditions at all times. Perhaps you are allergic to dogs mildly and only notice the irritation after the shelter because they may not be as clean and there is a ton of dander floating around in the building. You should be allergy tested to see if you have a dog allergy. Mine is very very mild but when i come in contact with a dog that has not been bathed in a while, i have the very same reaction as you do, my hands turn red, they swell and sometimes they dry out and crack open and bleed. That is like i said if the dog is not perfectly maintained. Otherwise, i dont get as much as a sniffle around them...i have 3 living in my house now.

post #30 of 132

Great news Chickmate~ thanks!!

kat - wife to Tim, mom to 3 kiddos (DS 22, DD 20, & DD 17 - the 4H member)  Our flock is made up of Polish, Silver Spangled Hamburgs, & a handful of brown egg layers- - avid quilter, canner, and homemaker :0)

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kat - wife to Tim, mom to 3 kiddos (DS 22, DD 20, & DD 17 - the 4H member)  Our flock is made up of Polish, Silver Spangled Hamburgs, & a handful of brown egg layers- - avid quilter, canner, and homemaker :0)

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