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ATTN. BREEDERS OF GAMEFOWL: Leghorn X Malay?? - Page 2

post #11 of 48
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lollipop 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gresh 
Quote:
Originally Posted by stoopid 

Did you see if it is included in the sppa listing?


This may sound dumb, but what is the SPPA? All that I know is that the Kraienkoppe is not recognized by the APA or ABA. It is almost strictly a German-Dutch breed, almost exclusively bred in Germany and the Netherlands, and promoted by only a couple of people here on the forum.


Society for the Preservation of Poultry Antiquities. Google it. Our very own saladin is the Secretary Treasurer........Pop


Saladin is? Wow, I've been talking to a poultry celebrity and didn't even know it! wink I will certainly check out the website.

Member of the United States Orloff Club. Visit our website at www.usorloffs.weebly.com. Support the Russian Orloff chicken breed!

 

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Member of the United States Orloff Club. Visit our website at www.usorloffs.weebly.com. Support the Russian Orloff chicken breed!

 

~Jesus Christ is my Savior~

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post #12 of 48

Saladin, or Dr. Charles Everett, is a common face on multiple sites. He has very nice oriental breeds, along with many other breeds of different types.

Breeding 2011
-Cubalayas: BB Red, Blue Red, GDW, Blue GDW, White, Red Pyle             -OEGB: Black and Wheaten
-Sumatras: Large and Bantam Black                                                         -Australorps: Black (one White hen)
-Ko Shamo: Blue Wheaten                                                                        -Brahmas: Light Bantams
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Breeding 2011
-Cubalayas: BB Red, Blue Red, GDW, Blue GDW, White, Red Pyle             -OEGB: Black and Wheaten
-Sumatras: Large and Bantam Black                                                         -Australorps: Black (one White hen)
-Ko Shamo: Blue Wheaten                                                                        -Brahmas: Light Bantams
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post #13 of 48

so does anyone else have any kraienkoppe's ?

" The great thing about not telling a lie . is you don't have to remember what you said!"          If i must choose to make a dollar or a friend , I will choose the friend every time . " JP"  My mentor        Home of  "West Slope Seramas"

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" The great thing about not telling a lie . is you don't have to remember what you said!"          If i must choose to make a dollar or a friend , I will choose the friend every time . " JP"  My mentor        Home of  "West Slope Seramas"

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post #14 of 48

My thoughts-

In theory any modern composite breed of known ancestry could be recreated by crossing the foundation breeds used to create it. There is nothing wrong with this concept, it's sound, good, theoretically a practical approach.

However, this recreation should not be done lightly! In my opinion, it would best be done if you did not have the breed in your country and no practical way to import it, or, the breed was extinct. The problem with a recreation is that the Malay and the Leghorn of yesterday are NOT the same as they are today, and you will not be able to get a good Belgium Game at all. Good Malay and good Leghorns are expensive and not easy to come by, especially the Malay. If you would use hatchery stock birds to do the remake, you will end with birds probably worse than the current hatchery Kraeinkoppes.  Any type of project like this would be best if it used the best possible examples of the breeds. Even if you could find good Malays, for the cost of one, you could get a ton of chicks from a hatchery. Malay are very very expensive, the good ones. The ones from Ideal are not worthy of the name. We already have kraienkoppe here in the USA. Why recreate them when we have them already? Two hatcheries carry them, and several breeders as well, although, I must add all stock is related.  They may not be the best, but they are real Kraienkoppes.  Why not get some chicks from both hatcheries, select the best from each, cull down really hard, and cross the 2 lines? Then, if possible, pick up a few breeder birds.   If you don't think you are making progress after a few years, get a great Malay and or Leghorn, and start a grading process. That is, cross a pure Kraienkoppe with either breed, then, select the best chicks, and cross them back to the kraienkoppe. Do this for 3-6 generations, this process should help fix any problem you think there is without recreating the whole breed.

Yes, using a BB Red Old English/American game  as part of the process might be as good if not better than using  a Leghorn.

Have you discovered this wealth of information on the breed?
http://forums2.gardenweb.com/forums/load/farmlife/msg0418105725939.html?30

DON'T HATCH IF YOU CAN'T DISPATCH !!

"Duos insequens lepores neutrum capit."
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DON'T HATCH IF YOU CAN'T DISPATCH !!

"Duos insequens lepores neutrum capit."
Reply
post #15 of 48

Thats was my thought useing a bbr old eng / am game and thank you for the link . i already found that . i think i found about everything there is on the internet to read about them .

Quote:
Originally Posted by gallorojo 

My thoughts-

In theory any modern composite breed of known ancestry could be recreated by crossing the foundation breeds used to create it. There is nothing wrong with this concept, it's sound, good, theoretically a practical approach.

However, this recreation should not be done lightly! In my opinion, it would best be done if you did not have the breed in your country and no practical way to import it, or, the breed was extinct. The problem with a recreation is that the Malay and the Leghorn of yesterday are NOT the same as they are today, and you will not be able to get a good Belgium Game at all. Good Malay and good Leghorns are expensive and not easy to come by, especially the Malay. If you would use hatchery stock birds to do the remake, you will end with birds probably worse than the current hatchery Kraeinkoppes.  Any type of project like this would be best if it used the best possible examples of the breeds. Even if you could find good Malays, for the cost of one, you could get a ton of chicks from a hatchery. Malay are very very expensive, the good ones. The ones from Ideal are not worthy of the name. We already have kraienkoppe here in the USA. Why recreate them when we have them already? Two hatcheries carry them, and several breeders as well, although, I must add all stock is related.  They may not be the best, but they are real Kraienkoppes.  Why not get some chicks from both hatcheries, select the best from each, cull down really hard, and cross the 2 lines? Then, if possible, pick up a few breeder birds.   If you don't think you are making progress after a few years, get a great Malay and or Leghorn, and start a grading process. That is, cross a pure Kraienkoppe with either breed, then, select the best chicks, and cross them back to the kraienkoppe. Do this for 3-6 generations, this process should help fix any problem you think there is without recreating the whole breed.

Yes, using a BB Red Old English/American game  as part of the process might be as good if not better than using  a Leghorn.

Have you discovered this wealth of information on the breed?
http://forums2.gardenweb.com/forums/load/farmlife/msg0418105725939.html?30

" The great thing about not telling a lie . is you don't have to remember what you said!"          If i must choose to make a dollar or a friend , I will choose the friend every time . " JP"  My mentor        Home of  "West Slope Seramas"

Reply

" The great thing about not telling a lie . is you don't have to remember what you said!"          If i must choose to make a dollar or a friend , I will choose the friend every time . " JP"  My mentor        Home of  "West Slope Seramas"

Reply
post #16 of 48
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by gallorojo 

My thoughts-

In theory any modern composite breed of known ancestry could be recreated by crossing the foundation breeds used to create it. There is nothing wrong with this concept, it's sound, good, theoretically a practical approach.

However, this recreation should not be done lightly! In my opinion, it would best be done if you did not have the breed in your country and no practical way to import it, or, the breed was extinct. The problem with a recreation is that the Malay and the Leghorn of yesterday are NOT the same as they are today, and you will not be able to get a good Belgium Game at all. Good Malay and good Leghorns are expensive and not easy to come by, especially the Malay. If you would use hatchery stock birds to do the remake, you will end with birds probably worse than the current hatchery Kraeinkoppes.  Any type of project like this would be best if it used the best possible examples of the breeds. Even if you could find good Malays, for the cost of one, you could get a ton of chicks from a hatchery. Malay are very very expensive, the good ones. The ones from Ideal are not worthy of the name. We already have kraienkoppe here in the USA. Why recreate them when we have them already? Two hatcheries carry them, and several breeders as well, although, I must add all stock is related.  They may not be the best, but they are real Kraienkoppes.  Why not get some chicks from both hatcheries, select the best from each, cull down really hard, and cross the 2 lines? Then, if possible, pick up a few breeder birds.   If you don't think you are making progress after a few years, get a great Malay and or Leghorn, and start a grading process. That is, cross a pure Kraienkoppe with either breed, then, select the best chicks, and cross them back to the kraienkoppe. Do this for 3-6 generations, this process should help fix any problem you think there is without recreating the whole breed.

Yes, using a BB Red Old English/American game  as part of the process might be as good if not better than using  a Leghorn.

Have you discovered this wealth of information on the breed?
http://forums2.gardenweb.com/forums/load/farmlife/msg0418105725939.html?30


Thank you for your input, my friend wink It is always enlightening to me to have a serious breeder give me his opinion.
Yeah, I should have clarified that I was planning to start with very nice stock (i.e. down with hatcheries! gig). I know of a couple breeders here on the Forum who breed Malays and at least one is in my section of the country, so if I wanted to initiate my hypothetical Kraienkoppe Project, I was going to try to resort to him. As for Leghorns, I imagine there are plenty of poultry shows that have serious Leghorn breeders who are selling their birds, and that it is easier, as you say, to get a good Leghorn than to get a good Malay.
I like your suggestion about crossing two hatchery strains, as hatcheries to me are usually more affordable, but what are the two hatcheries you were speaking of? I only know of IDEAL Poultry and Purely Poultry. Purely Poultry is really too young of a hatchery for me to judge, but I have a good idea of what IDEAL sells, based on other people's experiences. People have told me that IDEAL sells puny halfbreeds. Their breeding programs are warped, and their stock has a reputation for being smaller than most hatchery stock, so I hear. Only if you or another respected breeder told me that IDEAL has pure stock would I believe it and be willing to try it.
Thanks for the link: it looks like it'll be very helpful big_smile

Member of the United States Orloff Club. Visit our website at www.usorloffs.weebly.com. Support the Russian Orloff chicken breed!

 

~Jesus Christ is my Savior~

Reply

Member of the United States Orloff Club. Visit our website at www.usorloffs.weebly.com. Support the Russian Orloff chicken breed!

 

~Jesus Christ is my Savior~

Reply
post #17 of 48

Sandhill has Kraienkoppes, in more than one color even.  Honestly, some hatchery stuff is really not all that bad, just depends on what you get. Kraienkoppes are not all that big to begin with, they lay well, so, with something like that, they typically won't be all that bad. I have gotten a few great birds from hatcheries, it can happen, they are not all bad.  Where you will run into major problems with hatchery stock is just in general it being around 20% too small in LF, and 20% too large in bantams, and the smallness problem gets worse as the breed gets larger. Also real gamefowl you can't get from hatchery. This breed is so rare, there really are not great ones out there, period. They need work and dedicated breeders, like many other rare breeds.  Read over the link I posted. It really explains what the hatchery birds will be like. 

Oh, I am not sure I qualify yet for "serious breeder". I try, but not sure I'm there yet. I need a few more years and to hatch a few hundred more birds first..wink

DON'T HATCH IF YOU CAN'T DISPATCH !!

"Duos insequens lepores neutrum capit."
Reply
DON'T HATCH IF YOU CAN'T DISPATCH !!

"Duos insequens lepores neutrum capit."
Reply
post #18 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigb-71 

Thats was my thought useing a bbr old eng / am game


Oh, I really hope you don't use an Old English or an American Game.

Mixing in any bird with a game attitude would, I think, be a huge breeding mistake and be a disservice to the Kraienkoppe breed.  Of course, you can breed your chickens in any way you want, but I would hope that you would warn buyers that you've added game to the Kraienkoppes you sell because, as it sits, Kraienkoppe roosters are known for their easy going temperment toward humans.

I would never want to add any of your birds to my flock if you were to add Old English or American Game to yours.  I enjoy being able to walk amongst the Kraienkoppes with ease as I do my duties.  I can't do that with my dual purpose layer flock that has three dual purpose roosters running with it.  All of my Kraienkoppes free range with each other, even the cocks and cockerels.  I don't think that would be possible if an American Game were bred into the breed, but I could be wrong since I'm not really up on game birds ... I've just seen videos of them strapped to barrels, which I don't have to do with Kraienkoppes and don't want to have to do if they get too much game blood in them.

I might offer you eggs or a cock, but no one's laying right now, not to mention that I'm busier than all get out.  All the hens are either still brooding chicks or transitioning either back into broodiness or hopefully transitioning to laying after a move.  Oh, and a few are molting, also.  All cocks are are spoken for here.  I only managed one selected breeding with a trio this summer.  The others were flock breedings.

Again, I think it would be a shame to muddle up the Kraienkoppes with game blood.  I guess, mixing in one game bird, then back crossing only the gentlest roosters for 7 generations might be acceptable.


Edited by Eggs-quisite Eggs-cursion - 10/6/11 at 2:48pm
post #19 of 48

i'm sure i won't . i really just want a Kraienkoppe roo for them . but the chance of finding one o% i'm lucky i even go the two girls ! i just would hate to waste them and not get some chicks out of them they are in my phoenix pen right now and they all get along great with them but i would love to start a Kraienkoppe project soon . 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eggs-quisite Eggs-cursion 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigb-71 

Thats was my thought useing a bbr old eng / am game


Oh, I really hope you don't use an Old English or an American Game.

Mixing in any bird with a game attitude would, I think, be a huge breeding mistake and be a disservice to the Kraienkoppe breed.  Of course, you can breed your chickens in any way you want, but I would hope that you would warn buyers that you've added game to the Kraienkoppes you sell because, as it sits, Kraienkoppe roosters are known for their easy going temperment toward humans.

I would never want to add any of your birds to my flock if you were to add Old English or American Game to yours.  I enjoy being able to walk amongst the Kraienkoppes with ease as I do my duties.  I can't do that with my dual purpose layer flock that has three dual purpose roosters running with it.  All of my Kraienkoppes free range with each other, even the cocks and cockerels.  I don't think that would be possible if an American Game were bred into the breed, but I could be wrong since I'm not really up on game birds ... I've just seen videos of them strapped to barrels, which I don't have to do with Kraienkoppes and don't want to have to do if they get too much game blood in them.

I might offer you eggs or a cock, but no one's laying right now, not to mention that I'm busier than all get out.  All the hens are either still brooding chicks or transitioning either back into broodiness or hopefully transitioning to laying after a move.  Oh, and a few are molting, also.  All cocks are are spoken for here.  Besides, my group all originally came from a hatchery, which is usually undesirable.  I only managed one selected breeding with a trio this summer.  The others were flock breedings.

Again, I think it would be a shame to muddle up the Kraienkoppes with game blood.  I guess, mixing in one game bird, then back crossing only the gentlest roosters for 7 generations might be acceptable.

" The great thing about not telling a lie . is you don't have to remember what you said!"          If i must choose to make a dollar or a friend , I will choose the friend every time . " JP"  My mentor        Home of  "West Slope Seramas"

Reply

" The great thing about not telling a lie . is you don't have to remember what you said!"          If i must choose to make a dollar or a friend , I will choose the friend every time . " JP"  My mentor        Home of  "West Slope Seramas"

Reply
post #20 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eggs-quisite Eggs-cursion 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigb-71 

Thats was my thought useing a bbr old eng / am game


Oh, I really hope you don't use an Old English or an American Game.

Mixing in any bird with a game attitude would, I think, be a huge breeding mistake and be a disservice to the Kraienkoppe breed.  Of course, you can breed your chickens in any way you want, but I would hope that you would warn buyers that you've added game to the Kraienkoppes you sell because, as it sits, Kraienkoppe roosters are known for their easy going temperment toward humans.

I would never want to add any of your birds to my flock if you were to add Old English or American Game to yours.  I enjoy being able to walk amongst the Kraienkoppes with ease as I do my duties.  I can't do that with my dual purpose layer flock that has three dual purpose roosters running with it.  All of my Kraienkoppes free range with each other, even the cocks and cockerels.  I don't think that would be possible if an American Game were bred into the breed, but I could be wrong since I'm not really up on game birds ... I've just seen videos of them strapped to barrels, which I don't have to do with Kraienkoppes and don't want to have to do if they get too much game blood in them.

I might offer you eggs or a cock, but no one's laying right now, not to mention that I'm busier than all get out.  All the hens are either still brooding chicks or transitioning either back into broodiness or hopefully transitioning to laying after a move.  Oh, and a few are molting, also.  All cocks are are spoken for here.  Besides, my group all originally came from a hatchery, which is usually undesirable.  I only managed one selected breeding with a trio this summer.  The others were flock breedings.

Again, I think it would be a shame to muddle up the Kraienkoppes with game blood.  I guess, mixing in one game bird, then back crossing only the gentlest roosters for 7 generations might be acceptable.


That is ridiculous. Game Cocks that are man aggressive are culls. They would be culled quicker than an aggressive cochin, or about any other breed, as they could do serious damage to their handler if they were aggressive. I have friends who have had american game all their lives, and they will cull a man fighter as quick as they can get their hands on it. The incorrect knowledge about game birds being spread on this site constantly surprises.


Edited by GotGame - 10/5/11 at 3:47pm

Reza Asil gamefowl

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Reza Asil gamefowl

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