What are the difrences between the RIR and NHR - Page 3

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris09 

 

Black Tailed Reds carry Db/Db where Reds are Co/Co

 

Breeders of Reds as well as Henk69 recognize them as a Red Columbian and not a Black Tailed Red.

 

 

Chris
 

 

 

RIR are so Dark I just can´t see the black stippling in them.. and so far RIR x Black cross I have seen the chicks seems to lack Db(they are just black, not brown)

but as far as NH are concerned, they look Black tail Red to me, but they could be Co, and Di is also a columbian restrictor, that could be helping restrict the stippling on the hackle and saddle

this are the "Known" Columbian like restrictors..

Quote:

Originally Posted by nicalandia 

RIR are so Dark I just can´t see the black stippling in them.. and so far RIR x Black cross I have seen the chicks seems to lack Db(they are just black, not brown)

 

but as far as NH are concerned, they look Black tail Red to me, but they could be Co, and Di is also a columbian restrictor, that could be helping restrict the stippling on the hackle and saddle

 

this are the "Known" Columbian like restrictors..

 

 

The ticking is best seen in the hens,

Chris

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris09 

 

Since the New Hampshire was bred solely from the Red there shouldn't be such a drastic difference in the genetic makeup of the two breeds.

 

Chris

 

 

I don't think we can use this unproven statement ("... the New Hampshire was bred solely from the [Rhode Island] Red....") anywhere in the discussion since it hasn't been replicated by anyone that I've ever heard of.   If it's true, then I'd like to read the peer reviewed documentation of someone again creating a New Hampshire out of a Rhode Island Red.  Even if it takes the whole "20 years."  I think the New Hampshire folks, those that developed the breed, could have added anything they liked during the development of the New Hampshire.  They had the money; they had the motives. They wanted their own breed with its own name and more.  And that would account for the "drastic difference in the genetic makeup of the two breeds" that you refer to.

I don't know.  It just seems like it's a possibility that should probably be explored.  Just sayin'.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spangled 

I don't think we can use this unproven statement ("... the New Hampshire was bred solely from the [Rhode Island] Red....") anywhere in the discussion since it hasn't been replicated by anyone that I've ever heard of.   If it's true, then I'd like to read the peer reviewed documentation of someone again creating a New Hampshire out of a Rhode Island Red.  Even if it takes the whole "20 years."  I think the New Hampshire folks, those that developed the breed, could have added anything they liked during the development of the New Hampshire.  They had the money; they had the motives. They wanted their own breed with its own name and more.  And that would account for the "drastic difference in the genetic makeup of the two breeds" that you refer to.

 

I don't know.  It just seems like it's a possibility that should probably be explored.  Just sayin'.

I absolutely agree with this post as I've always thought this too, even though I have read that because the breeders of the New Hampshire were going for different types of traits(whether be it meat strains or an egg laying strain, there were both and the meat strain ended up being a very surprisingly well layer also) and because of this that there was really no emphasis put on color, that is how the lighter color ended up on the New Hampshire. I do believe somewhere way back yonder there was something else added to the mix and I can see this too. I do believe if you bred the dark red together 10,000 times you're still gonna get dark birds maybe some variance in color but just not as drastic as the mahogany to chestnut (sure looks to me something BUFF was thrown in the pot) just sayin' too, I've seen way more than one picture of RIRxBuff Orpingtons/or Rocks and they/'ve always resembled the looks of New Hampshire colored birds to me. HUH?/un-huh?

Jeff
 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris09 

 

Black Tailed Reds carry Db/Db where Reds are Co/Co

 

Breeders of Reds as well as Henk69 recognize them as a Red Columbian and not a Black Tailed Red.

 

 

Chris
 

 

 

Hi,

I am a Db-denier of sorts, but that doesn't prove anything... ;)

Main reason is that Db is often linked to Pg and/or Ml (penciled or spangled).

In my opinion Co is the most common compared to Db.

Co and Db are both columbian-like restrictors. There may be similar genes that behave like one of them.

Co is the better restrictor (removes more black from the body especially on hens) but it is fully suppressed by extended black and birchen.

Db is not. So crossing a NH with an extended black breed should show what they have.

Db removes black from lower hackle. But both RIR and NH are wheatenbased, and wheaten also removes black from the hackle!

Light sussex probably have a hackle black enhancer to compensate.

Db does a bad job removing black pattern from a hen's body. But wheaten does just that!

Co does make an equal bodycolor. Db does this less so.

But if a NH has both Mh and Di this could have an effect that goes against the equal bodycolor.

Co on wheaten often looks quite pale.

I must say that the bodycolor of black tailed/penciled (Db-Pg) roosters is a lot like that of the NH.

Still, Co could be present. As Marvin pointed out, RIR probably have it.

Black tailed is a columbian-like restricted color like true columbian is.

Black tailed japanese bantams are wheaten plus Co here in Holland.

No sign of hackle black in good specimens, but the breed must be selected for that.

Finally, I think that the color of the NH does not need Di and Mh.

The german NH is one of the most beautiful breeds I have seen. The color is a bit boring though.

In Europe and Russia a lot of similar breeds were made. I am baffled that it isn't popular in the US.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Henk69 

Hi,

 

I am a Db-denier of sorts, but that doesn't prove anything... ;)

Co is the better restrictor (removes more black from the body especially on hens) but it is fully suppressed by extended black and birchen.

 

Db is the strongest Columbian restrictor on males, even in the presence of melanizers like Ml, Pg.. it can restrict ER birds even in Heterozygous form

Co is the strongest columbian on Females.. some breeds could carry both genes.