sexing peachicks - Page 17

Quote:

Originally Posted by frenchblackcopper 

Mmmaddie13,,,with that much dark pigment showing at 4 weeks of age,,you are holding a male,,,b/s hens do not get near that much coloring across their backs,they stay more yellow much longer then tend to develope a lite pinkish-tan coloring,,not the mottled look your peachick has showing now.Also notice in your second picture the cuticle of the feather is already showing black which will start to expand outward as the feathers grows,,again proving these feathers do not come in,grow in,or are molted out and grow in a solid color,,,the color progressivly changes as time goes on from pigment coming from the liver of the bird.Also this black cuticle coloring is proof it's going to be a male because hens of the B/S pattern have rusty-dark brown colored flight feathers as adults.

 Lil Zoo,,as your Midnight B/S chick gets older,feel free to take a pic at about 3 weeks of age if you want me to sex it correctly for you as well.

 '

Now to further prove my point here if I have the personal freetime,and scheduling is right for doing this,,I am going to produce a SOLID black peachick before this seasons hatching is over.I will take plenty of pictures when it is hatched,,and progressively as it grows to prove once and for all,,feathers DO change color as they GROW,,, again this will be done if I have time,,to produce this peachick of all solid black color does take correct timing on several accounts,and if my work schedule gets in the way,it may not happen yet this year,or if my peahens finally gives up on laying for good. Two nites ago I didn't get 1 egg,last nite I got 4 eggs,,and the problem with last minute-late season hatchlings is they will tend NOT to lay eggs within the normal timeframe during their second seson.Ei,,if they were hatched in August,,and they don't start laying untl they are indeed 24 months old,,August would be their expected  2 yr birthday when they would start laying eggs.So if I do this with a few peachicks I'm not planning on them producing in 2014,,

Thanks Randy! I wanna see this all black peachick! :)

And has anyone noticed voice changes in the babies? The blackshoulder - male, as I now know :) - is the only one who has a little bit of a squeak in his voice. They're all the same age (give or take a few days), but he's the only one who does it. Does that mean I have one male and four females?? Just guessing here.

Don't be mad, but! Scientifically, feathers don't change colors once they are formed.... so unless you're planning on proving the scientific community wrong with an actual experiment with marking feathers and documenting individual feather color changes, like actual changes.... I can't take an argument about feathers actually changing colors seriously no matter how much I like you. Feathers are formed of keratin (like your hair) and can be stained or bleached, but the feather, once it forms, is done changing. It isn't going to change from brown to black, or from striped to brown or something. It's just not, science has already proven that. To disprove that appropriately would require some pretty solid proof and controlled experimental conditions.

Mmmaddie13,,please keep a close eye on you b/s peachicks flight feathers that are now a rusty brown color,,but also show a black cuticle,,,pay close attention  how many times this same feather or feathers falls out and document the color change with pictures please?

 Kedreeva,,predisposed genetics of pigments formed in the liver affect color changes as the bird ages.Somehow I just don't see how a rusty brown flight feather falls out,and is replaced by an all black feather.I've been stareing at my birds all summer looking for this to happen but they have not molted or lost their flight feathers but I'm witnessing significantly more black pigment expanding outwards from the cuticle to the edge of the feather.How did the rusty brown feather get there if they are to be solid black? How in Mmmaddie13 pics above,her chick clearly shows a black cuticle with a rusty brown pigment on the feather,if indeed the black pigment now in the cuticle of that feather will grow outwards as the feather grows?

 What my plans are (if I have time and the right egg is laid) is to produce a solid black colored peachick at hatchtime.As this chick grows this black color will disappear and the chicks natural color will come into place thus proving as feathers grow,so does pigment.By trying ths experiment we will learn 1 of two options 1) That the feathers will stay this color forever until the bird deceases since as some say,,feathers DON'T change colors,,2) that as this peachick will grow the black pigment goes away and the predisposed genetics of the chick grows these feathers the correct color.It would be impossible for me to "stain or bleach" every feather of a newly hatched peachicks feathers without it probably dying a few hours afterwards,,my proof will be in pictures of the cuticle of the fuzz or feathers as they grow,.proving the peachick has this pigment at hatchtime within it's body.But as the chicks grows feather color WILL change.

I don't think he's saying that they "change color" in the sense you're defending. The feather color just progresses, so to speak. I can notice the progression best in my Blackshoulder ("Solid wing") chick. When I first got him, he was all yellow with just peach flight feathers. Now as he's gotten older and his feathers have grown, they are developing more black around the middle of the feather. Same with the shoulder feathers, they came in a soft peachy color, and are now, obviously, much darker.

Blackshoulder chick on the left, the day I brought them home:

A few days later, maybe a week old:

And again, a few days later around 10-12 days old:

And today, at a month old:

No, they don't change colors like a chameleon, but yes, the colors "progress" as they grow...

Quote:

Originally Posted by frenchblackcopper 

 Kedreeva,,predisposed genetics of pigments formed in the liver affect color changes as the bird ages.Somehow I just don't see how a rusty brown flight feather falls out,and is replaced by an all black feather.I've been stareing at my birds all summer looking for this to happen but they have not molted or lost their flight feathers but I'm witnessing significantly more black pigment expanding outwards from the cuticle to the edge of the feather.How did the rusty brown feather get there if they are to be solid black? How in Mmmaddie13 pics above,her chick clearly shows a black cuticle with a rusty brown pigment on the feather,if indeed the black pigment now in the cuticle of that feather will grow outwards as the feather grows?

 

 

By trying ths experiment we will learn 1 of two options 1) That the feathers will stay this color forever until the bird deceases since as some say,,feathers DON'T change colors,,2) that as this peachick will grow the black pigment goes away and the predisposed genetics of the chick grows these feathers the correct color.It would be impossible for me to "stain or bleach" every feather of a newly hatched peachicks feathers without it probably dying a few hours afterwards,,my proof will be in pictures of the cuticle of the fuzz or feathers as they grow,.proving the peachick has this pigment at hatchtime within it's body.But as the chicks grows feather color WILL change.

Well, obviously the whole flight feather doesn't um... how to say it... I guess pop out at once? haha I don't know how to explain what I mean... but like, it starts forming inside the sheath under the skin, right? And then it starts getting um... pushed out and the bonds the old feather has to flesh weaken until the new feather causes it to be discarded. But like, the new feather obviously doesn't just pop out fully formed. I suspect what you're seeing is feathers as they are growing in, the base of them is 'growing' and making it look like the feather is actually changing color. I suspect that if you were to maybe take a sharpie or something, and outline where you see the pigments, the outline would show that the black isn't spreading, just more feather is coming in... well, out. YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN lol I'm so braindead today, seriously I need to stop staying up until 1am watching these things I know will hurt me on TV... sigh

Anyway, I don't think pictures alone would be... enough proof, at least not for me (sorry, grew up around too many scientists, work at a research facility). Only because it's really hard to prove that the feathers aren't new feathers without marking them. As for feathers coming in different colors over time (not feathers themselves changing colors, but the bird changing which feathers grow in what colors... does that make sense? I'm sorry if it doesn't... again, a little sleep deprived!), pigment cells can change over time. Obviously a 3 month old peachick has different colors than a 2 year old... and there's always weird cases like Deerman's crazy bronze-turning-white bird! But I think that's a matter of which pigment cells (in the skin) are being activated to deposit pigment on forming feathers, not a matter of the feather having pigment cells it's using to change its color after formation.

I wonder, if you had a BS bird, and you used a sharpie or something to MARK feathers (not like stain an entire bird, just mark feathers you think are going to change) and photo-document the changes in reference to the sharpie marks... that would be a better starting place, I think, for solid proof. If I end up getting eggs next spring, I can join in and we can compare notes!

Does anyone know at what point feathers are considered fully grown?

(I don't mean that the bird has adult feathers, but that each individual feather has completed its growing process).

I agree with Kedreeva, it seems to be scientifically proven that a fully grown feather can't change its color.

However, feathers do go through a process of formation during which, perhaps, the color may change along the lines of what FBC is discussing.

This doesn't quite apply to this discussion! but it has some relevant points:

http://www.sibleyguides.com/2011/08/abnormal-coloration-in-birds-melanin-reduction/

Especially relevant, I think, is his note that the process by which melanin is "deposited in the growing feathers by color cells" can change "at any stage and for many different reasons."

I take this to mean that color changes/shifts can occur during the process of feather development.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kedreeva 

Don't be mad, but! Scientifically, feathers don't change colors once they are formed.... so unless you're planning on proving the scientific community wrong with an actual experiment with marking feathers and documenting individual feather color changes, like actual changes.... I can't take an argument about feathers actually changing colors seriously no matter how much I like you. Feathers are formed of keratin (like your hair) and can be stained or bleached, but the feather, once it forms, is done changing. It isn't going to change from brown to black, or from striped to brown or something. It's just not, science has already proven that. To disprove that appropriately would require some pretty solid proof and controlled experimental conditions.

Kedreeva,

My charcoal chicks start off brown like an IB and then the feathers turn all gray within a month or 2. I have pictures to prove it

It's kinda funmy the Deerman's Bronze males tail turning white has been brought up,,,but didn't I read somewhere that Clifton Nicholson got the color bronze by also using white? It's no wonder it shows up time to time.This is soo simple,,,If feathers comes in all one color,,and they do not change color,,,as some here says,,,why is it then so easy to see two very distinct colors on the same covert wing feathers especially in black shouldered males? How can 1 feather have BOTH rusty brown,,AND BLACK on it at the same time? Same feather but two very diffrent colors  both  on that feather at once.By what your saying Kedreeva,,the feather cannot be this way,it has to be one,or simply the other color,,but not both.No matter how you look at it,,any feather on the bird anywhere that has two diffrent colors on it must be something new,possibly a new color mutation in the works? I can go out in my purple/split peach b/s pen and pull a few of these covert wing feathers that still has both these colors on them.If feather colors does not change we would see b/s males have all rusty colored feathers until they die,,or black covert wing feathers until they die but not both or not a single feather with both colors,correct? Or would the  science books would need to be re-written..?

 Yoda,,EXACTLY!! Mmmaddie13,,EXACTLY!! If the slow color transmission does not occur,,(as I know it does) one morning you would wake up and the chick would be a completly new color,,losing the rust color and growing in all black.There wouldn't be any feathers anywhere on the chick  showing both colors at once.

 New 2 pfowl,,the feather has completed it's lifespan after the cuticle has become white,less blood is passed thru it as the feather reaches maturity until no more whatsoever is passed..the feather has a "finite" eventual size,unlike a hair follicle that continues to  grow and grow.

 Kedreeva,I can wing band the black peachick and can take pics daily of the same wing.Black would be the easiest color to use since the peachicks skin is pale white and would easily show staining if you think I would  dye the feather color.Bleaching feathers as they grow as to not show the cuticle color diffrence would be a daily occurance and likely kill the peachick after a few days from the harshness of the bleach involved. Primary flight feathers are the fastest to grow and easiest to use as a reference point daily,,maybe you think another color besides black would be better? Whatever color,the feather cuticle-midrib will be the same color as the peachicks feathers once hatched.It would be easiest to use a black shouldered peachick-egg since once hatched the natural fuzz feather color is white-yellow.And at present my Midnights and silver pieds are the only two b/s patterns I have that are still laying.And as late as the season is the eggs could come up infertile at anytime.But anything to prove a point,,and that is feathers do,and will change color as they grow.

Quote:

Originally Posted by frenchblackcopper 

Mmmaddie13,,please keep a close eye on you b/s peachicks flight feathers that are now a rusty brown color,,but also show a black cuticle,,,pay close attention  how many times this same feather or feathers falls out and document the color change with pictures please?

 Kedreeva,,predisposed genetics of pigments formed in the liver affect color changes as the bird ages.Somehow I just don't see how a rusty brown flight feather falls out,and is replaced by an all black feather.I've been stareing at my birds all summer looking for this to happen but they have not molted or lost their flight feathers but I'm witnessing significantly more black pigment expanding outwards from the cuticle to the edge of the feather.How did the rusty brown feather get there if they are to be solid black? How in Mmmaddie13 pics above,her chick clearly shows a black cuticle with a rusty brown pigment on the feather,if indeed the black pigment now in the cuticle of that feather will grow outwards as the feather grows?

 What my plans are (if I have time and the right egg is laid) is to produce a solid black colored peachick at hatchtime.As this chick grows this black color will disappear and the chicks natural color will come into place thus proving as feathers grow,so does pigment.By trying ths experiment we will learn 1 of two options 1) That the feathers will stay this color forever until the bird deceases since as some say,,feathers DON'T change colors,,2) that as this peachick will grow the black pigment goes away and the predisposed genetics of the chick grows these feathers the correct color.It would be impossible for me to "stain or bleach" every feather of a newly hatched peachicks feathers without it probably dying a few hours afterwards,,my proof will be in pictures of the cuticle of the fuzz or feathers as they grow,.proving the peachick has this pigment at hatchtime within it's body.But as the chicks grows feather color WILL change.

If the chicks are white you can inject them with dye inside the eggs rite before hatch and they will be whatever color you want just like easter chicks

Quote:

Originally Posted by zazouse 

If the chicks are white you can inject them with dye inside the eggs rite before hatch and they will be whatever color you want just like easter chicks

I've done this, and is especially effective with keeping different clutches of white or bs chicks apart when they hatch!