Making a true backyard chicken? - Page 3  

Nyowpotopop, how long have you owned chickens, how many, and under what conditions?  You make it sound like a small backyard flock is a noisy nuisance that all neighbors will rue with a passion!  In my experience, most small backyard flocks make far less noise than most pet dogs in the backyard.  Even the "noisy" breeds.  Yes, there are noise ordinances, however an animal has to make a specified volume of noise for a specified duration of time in order for there to be a legal issue.  Yes, my flock can occasionally be quite loud, and since they are right outside my bedroom window I know about it even before my neighbors can hear them, but it is a rarity and not without a good reason.  Several of the neighbors' dogs on the other hand are far louder for far longer and for far less reason than my chickens have ever been.  If your chickens (assuming they are hens at any rate) are loud enough for a long enough period of time to violate any reasonable noise ordinance, then there is something terribly wrong with your basic husbandry practices.

Yes, there are dog breeds that are typically less inclined to be noisy.  However, more crucial than the breed to the noise level of the dog is the environment in which it is kept and the training that the owner is willing to put into that dog.  Every single one of the dog breeds you've listed except for greyhounds I can think of at least one example that has been excessively loud.  And I have known many examples of dogs from a breed that is renowned for being barky that was quiet...because the owners were careful to train their dogs to be so and to manage their environment so that they do not annoy the neighbors.  Even in the breeds that are typically less noisy, that is a random side effect more than by design, the breed was selectively bred for some other trait(s) and it just so happened that the dogs possessing those traits (and thus being bred) tended to be quieter.  Chickens as a species are typically not inclined to be overly loud for any length of time, particularly in the size a flock that could comfortably fit in the small size lots that you are describing.  So there really isn't a need to produce a "quieter" breed of chicken just for backyard flocks, as hens of most breeds already meet the requirements for reasonably quiet chickens in a truly urban setting where keeping chickens is legal (and let's face it, in most of these environments roosters are illegal anyway).

I think the Norwegian Jaerhon is the perfect breed for a small backyard flock. They are autosexing so you know their sex from day one and never have to buy a rooster if you don't want one. They are small just a little bigger than a bantam, but they lay a large white/tinted egg that would make a Leghorn proud. Mine have layed through heat and cold and are still laying well in their second year. They are quieter than any other breed of chicken I have had over the last 40 years. They cackle softly when they lay and the roosters crow is fairly quiet. Because they are small you can keep more in the same space as other large fowl to get more eggs. They are also non broody so they don't stop laying to sit on eggs. They accept confinment well but are active little birds and are good foragers if free ranged and that brings up their only fault for backyard chicken keepers. They are great fliers so they must be kept in a covered run or they will be able to visit the rest of the neighborhood or walk on the roof of your house. If handled when chicks they are friendly and will eat out of your hand or perch on you, but they don't seem to like to be cuddled. They don't produce much meat, but most backyard chicken keepers want eggs more than meat so to me that would not be a real draw back to the breed. Also they are rather pretty to me anyway. I wish more people would give them a try.

It is becoming quite apparent that you just want to argue with people who are pointing out the lack of logic in your statements, so this will be my last post on this thread.  I actually have a biology degree and went to nursing school, so I have quite an extensive scientific background.  I also have vast experience with dogs.  There was no oversight or failure to acknowledge your experience with dogs.  It just isn't relevant to what you are saying.  I work with sighthounds, I have 4 different breeds of dogs that have varying levels of noise/barking. Does that make what I say about chickens more relevant?  You pointed out anecdotal stories about your mixed breed dog, and some dogs you see at events.  It does not ring true and it does not apply to the bird world.

What we are trying to tell you is that even if you cull the loudest birds, and only breed the quiet ones, "quiet" isn't a genetically passed down trait.  Temperament can be to some extent, but it doesn't work the way you are saying.  Since you want to use your dog as an example, if you bred your quiet dog to another quiet dog, you wouldn't get quiet puppies.  You might get a puppy that is quieter than the others, but that doesn't mean it then will produce quiet puppies.  You also pointed out breeds of dog that have genetic differences that make them make other noises besides the traditional bark, not ones who are less inclined to bark.

Noise ordinances vary.  I know of no chickens who cluck or "scream" as you put it all day and all night.  Not even the louder breeds.  Not even a rooster.  Some clucking here and there, with a predator, with an egg, with a squabble.   But I know of no breed that makes as much noise as a dog.  I'm not sure who you are talking to that says their birds "scream: all day long...but as you have read here on this thread, the majority of people who have small backyard flocks have very little noise from them.  My neighbors didn't even know I had chickens until he saw my daughters out front with one of their birds and I have seven in my yard.  Chickens aren't going to be silent, but there are breeds out there already that make less noise.

As far as your argument on people owning chickens illegally, well thats kind of a pointless point.  A responsible owner who is allowed chickens by law, who takes care of their chickens, and doesn't have a rooster, shouldn't have issues with noise ordinances.  If they have a bird that is noisier than they desire, or one that is causing a problem, then that bird either needs to get rehomed or become dinner.

You want to try and make quiet chickens...go for it.  But it isn't a simple project that is easily traced like a color strain/variety.  I think you will have very disappointing results...but if you want to give it a shot....whatever floats your boat.  No one is trying to stop you.  I'm trying to put this as nice as possible but you just want to argue and not listen to the constructive criticism you are getting.

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4hchickmama 

It is becoming quite apparent that you just want to argue with people who are pointing out the lack of logic in your statements, so this will be my last post on this thread.  I actually have a biology degree and went to nursing school, so I have quite an extensive scientific background.  I also have vast experience with dogs.  There was no oversight or failure to acknowledge your experience with dogs.  It just isn't relevant to what you are saying.  I work with sighthounds, I have 4 different breeds of dogs that have varying levels of noise/barking. Does that make what I say about chickens more relevant?  You pointed out anecdotal stories about your mixed breed dog, and some dogs you see at events.  It does not ring true and it does not apply to the bird world.

What we are trying to tell you is that even if you cull the loudest birds, and only breed the quiet ones, "quiet" isn't a genetically passed down trait.  Temperament can be to some extent, but it doesn't work the way you are saying.  Since you want to use your dog as an example, if you bred your quiet dog to another quiet dog, you wouldn't get quiet puppies.  You might get a puppy that is quieter than the others, but that doesn't mean it then will produce quiet puppies.  You also pointed out breeds of dog that have genetic differences that make them make other noises besides the traditional bark, not ones who are less inclined to bark.

Noise ordinances vary.  I know of no chickens who cluck or "scream" as you put it all day and all night.  Not even the louder breeds.  Not even a rooster.  Some clucking here and there, with a predator, with an egg, with a squabble.   But I know of no breed that makes as much noise as a dog.  I'm not sure who you are talking to that says their birds "scream: all day long...but as you have read here on this thread, the majority of people who have small backyard flocks have very little noise from them.  My neighbors didn't even know I had chickens until he saw my daughters out front with one of their birds and I have seven in my yard.  Chickens aren't going to be silent, but there are breeds out there already that make less noise.

As far as your argument on people owning chickens illegally, well thats kind of a pointless point.  A responsible owner who is allowed chickens by law, who takes care of their chickens, and doesn't have a rooster, shouldn't have issues with noise ordinances.  If they have a bird that is noisier than they desire, or one that is causing a problem, then that bird either needs to get rehomed or become dinner.

 

You want to try and make quiet chickens...go for it.  But it isn't a simple project that is easily traced like a color strain/variety.  I think you will have very disappointing results...but if you want to give it a shot....whatever floats your boat.  No one is trying to stop you.  I'm trying to put this as nice as possible but you just want to argue and not listen to the constructive criticism you are getting.

You have cut to the chase : arguement and lack of logic.  I applaud you.

I currently have 9 Jaerhon hens and 2 roosters and a bunch of chicks. I also have several other breeds. The duration of crowing is genetic and there are breeds that belong to the long crower group that crow very long and loud and have been bred for that characteristic. So I am sure that the opposite could be true and roosters could be bred to crow short and quiet, however the long crowers have been bred for centuaries to produce the change in quality of the crow and only some of their crows are extra long. I think breeding for short and quiet crows could be done but it would be an extremely difficult and long term project. I don't know anyone who raises long crowers so I don't know if the hens are noisier than other hens. However, though there is always individual differences, there are some breeds that the majority of experienced chicken keepers will agree are as a whole are noisier than others and some that are quieter. My Leghorn hens are noisier than my Norwegian Jaerhon hens and my EE are inbetween. My Jaerhons are not silent they are just less talkative and have softer voices. If you want a difficult and life time breeding project then go for it. However, it would be easier and faster to not keep roosters and offer your neighbors eggs. 

^ quote.

ok first i want to say i am a college student that studies genetic mutation and heredity of traits aka inheritance. i also show dogs a three way hound aka sighthound that also uses scent.

since dogs really are some of the best examples of pass and fail in genetics lets take a look at what you are saying.

 you are saying we could breed for a bird that will be bred to be so mellow that it will never make a sound correct? are you aware personality is not inheritable? weak and unstable temperament is and it can crop up even in the best dog lines and those dogs are spayed and neutered and sent to pet not show homes.

No one here has called you an idiot, but they are going to tell you that noisiness isn't a trait you can breed for...because it isn't. Without having an in depth knowledge of genetics and a lab to find those markers (or alot of selective breeding for specific traits not just personality), this is a project that will take possibly more than a lifetime to achieve.

In addition, no one said you didn't have to worry about noise ordinances with chickens Just like no one can tell you that your dog getting in and out of the crate isn't going to bug the neighbors, no one here can tell you that your neighbors aren't going to complain about your chickens.

basenji's are not bred to be quiet it is a trait the breed had when it was discovered and they are not silent, they yodel and some hardly do it and others do it 24/7 despite every trick there owners come up with it depends on the animals personality. any scientist knows an animal personality and makeup is 50% nature and 50% nurture with a chicken it would probably be more like 50% nature 50% environment since you dont spend as much time with them as you would a dog.

my dog is as i said a sighthound that also uses scent i have a few friends with bloodhounds and when they want to be they can be exceptionally noisy some housing where i live will not allow ppl that own them to live there  because the bay of these dogs was meant to be heard and they will do it even when not on the hunt sometimes just to get a reaction or complain on a walk that you are holding them back from visiting with a kid or another dog.

i have seen people with excellent lines of dogs still pull the ocassional pup with a personality problem and they are immediatly removed from the breeding population . the lines could have perfectly stable dogs as far back at 1800's and still throw a weak dog.

for chickens i will say this  there are still ppl that can't breed out caeca yet either if you want a fool proof way of getting quiet birds since personality is pretty low on the inheritance tree a big proof is to look at yourself...

do you have your parents personality? how many ppl are exactly like their parents? most dogs arent and neither are most chickens we have quirks.

you would need to breed for a mutation or alter a group of unrelated roosters to make the gene and hope that it is dominant in their offspring even though if they were altered it wouldnt show up in the roosters themselves.or breed animals like our ancestors did you want a specific quality? you should breed for a softer voice, cull those that do not meet that expectation and continue to check them for pitch of the vocalizations until it is nearly non existent.

there is something to be said about personality yes but it takes longer and may still result in a bird that is weak nerved flighty and exceptionally vocal. breed for personality AND pitch and you will have a silent and generally relaxed birds with the ocassional freak.

not all hounds are created equal even from the best lines as i said you can get a dog just as easy as you can a bird thet defies the breeds standard temperament they are bred for. unstable dogs are not bred because no one wants to keep that in there lines therefor flighty birds should not be bred or overly vocal ones for what you desire.

add:most cities have a limit of 4 or less chickens...there is a HUGE difference in noise when you have 15 birds as opposed to 4 or 5.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nyowpotopop 

So I have been wondering this for a while. Has anyone tried to make a true "backyard" chicken for urban chicken keepers? For people actually keeping in a back yard?

 

And I am not talking about you lucky folks with "only" 3 acres to raise chickens on... I'm talking about us poor city saps who have to make due with 1/2 acre tops, normally much less and have regulations and nosy neighbors 20 feet away across our driveway to deal with.

 

The concept would be a sort of multi-purpose chicken with a heavier focus on eggs (since most people can't keep roos for meat breeding but may process extra birds)... A breed that is docile and QUIET, hardy, and confines well for good city living. Also I'd love to see a fair size difference between hens and roos since most people will be processing their roos and getting eggs from their hens.

 

Would anybody be interested in making a bird like this? Has anybody tried this yet... And if not; why not?

Your original post.  No one here has called you an idiot.  They are simply answering your question, particularly the parts regarding interest in such a project and the why not, with their reason.  There is little, if any, interest in this project because there is no need for it.  There are already breeds that fit the needs of a true backyard flock.  Why not?  Because there is no real interest in taking on a project that will take more than one or two lifetimes with a high risk of complete failure when there are already several breeds that meet the needs you set forth.

I take slight offense to your implication that everyone here lives in a rural or semi-rural paradise with acerage and no neighbors to worry about.  I live in a city of over 41,000 (more than that during the school year as this is a college town) on a lot that is approximately 60x80, not even 1/4 acre.  My backyard is maybe 30x30, if that, and my neighbors are close, close enough that one neighbor's garage makes up part of my fence.  I have had to deal with noise complaints for both my birds and my dogs because one neighbor or another decided to be a jerk, although neither was founded.  We had to kill our rooster this spring, even though he made less noise than most of the dogs in the neighborhood and several of my neighbors have told me that they rarely heard him, because someone complained to animal control about the rooster and we were possibly in violation of an excessively vague ordinance.  Animal control never followed up with us on exactly what part of the ordinance we were supposedly in violation of but we didn't feel it was worth risking the potential $175 fine if we didn't "correct" the problem within 24 hours of the notice being posted (even though animal control never got back to us about it, ever).  I currently have 6 adult hens and about 14 juvenile chickens ranging from 3 weeks to 10 weeks, most of them cockerels who have not yet started crowing.  Most of my neighbors are fine with the chickens, although I do share a fenceline with one neighbor who has accused my chickens of being the cause of mice in his garage (even though my coop and the chicken food is not near that part of the yard) and clearly does not approve of them.  But since they are legal and the hens do not in any way violate any of the noise ordinances, specific to animals or general, there's nothing he can do about the fact that he dislikes our keeping of chickens.  Believe me, if he could just complain and make us get rid of them he would.  And this is a town where there was previously an ordinance prohibiting chickens which was repealed a few years ago.  So yes, I do know what I am talking about when I talk about my backyard chickens not being "too loud" for an urban environment unless husbandry practices are lacking!

There is absolutely a need for quieter chickens.  There are potentially thousands of people who might choose to finally buy some chickens if they made less noise.  The noise factor is mentioned here quite often.  It is almost always because of neighbors that people here want quieter chickens.  Why the argument over whether or not lousy nieghbors can prevent some folks from having chickens in their backyards? 

Many breeds have been developed in much less than a lifetime.  I have no idea why so many people are downright belligerent over the prospect of breeding a quieter chicken.  The difference with chickens is we can select and breed a new generation much more frequently.  Selecting the quiet-EST birds from already quiet breeds would absolutely produce some results. 

What Dr. Reginald Punnett accomplished with the Cream Legbar was astonishing!  You know, this is the guy who they named "Punnett Squares" after.  He had quite an "extensive scientific background" also.    He did all of this in much less than several lifetimes.  To say emphatically that quietness is not passed on genetically is nonsense!  We have not even come close to unravelling the ALL of the mysteries of DNA. 

Discussing dogs, we bred field trial champion rabbit dogs for years.  For example, if we had a ***** with a short high-pitched chop while on scent, she would almost always produce some progeny with a very similar bark.  In the hog-dog hobby, we do not want to alert the hog that we are near.  We breed specifically for dogs that trail quietly.  A dog that alerts the hog would send the hog into the next parish.  In the same breeds of dogs, Catahoula, Walker Hounds, Blackmouth Curs we have managed to breed some that bay/bark on trail and some that are mummy-quiet. 

To say that chickens cannot be selectively bred to be quieter is ludicrous!  We have ABSOLUTELY bred for quietness in dogs.  No coincidence, no maybe!  We breed quiet dams to quiet sires and come up with quieter dogs.  Why is it impossible with chickens? 

~edited by Staff~