Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris09 

 

 

 

A Gold/ Golden Birchen is a Brown Red. 

 

 

 

 

Patterns and Colors can be one of the same;

Columbian is a Color/Pattern and is also a Gene

Silver Birchen [Birchen] is a Color/Pattern

Brown Red/ Gold/en Birchen is a Color/Pattern and a gene

 

 

Chris

So I guess I am really confused about why you are saying that Birchen is a color and it can only be Silver and then you say a Gold/en Birchen is a Brown Red? It appears that these two terms can be used synonymously.

You are basically telling Chickenextreme they are wrong about saying the bird is a Gold Birchen color but then you say a Gold Birchen is a Brown Red and then go on to say is can be a color and a pattern both. What if Chickenextreme is referring to Birchen as a pattern and giving it the adjective Gold, and you are saying that the Color is Birchen because by your definition the color Birchen is only Silver and if it is the pattern Gold Birchen you only want to refer to it as a Brown Red. The link you provided calls the color/pattern Golden Birchen and only parenthetically qualifies it as Red Brown. This is why it is so confusing.

It seems y'all are arguing apples and oranges. But are both talking fruit.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dretd 

So I guess I am really confused about why you are saying that Birchen is a color and it can only be Silver and then you say a Gold/en Birchen is a Brown Red? It appears that these two terms can be used synonymously.

 

You are basically telling Chickenextreme they are wrong about saying the bird is a Gold Birchen color but then you say a Gold Birchen is a Brown Red and then go on to say is can be a color and a pattern both. What if Chickenextreme is referring to Birchen as a pattern and giving it the adjective Gold, and you are saying that the Color is Birchen because by your definition the color Birchen is only Silver and if it is the pattern Gold Birchen you only want to refer to it as a Brown Red. The link you provided calls the color/pattern Golden Birchen and only parenthetically qualifies it as Red Brown. This is why it is so confusing.

 

It seems y'all are arguing apples and oranges. But are both talking fruit.

Thanks Again  

i only consider birchen a color and not a pattern as i have never seen birchen used as a pattern

color/pattern ex. this is a brown red (a golden birchen) 

heres the silver birchen

if birchen is used as a pattern then this a brown red birchen AM??

also could this fawn be considered a silver birchen??

could this red pyle also be considered a golden birchen since it has the same pattern as the above birds??

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris09 

Not my bird Picture form http://bantams.the-kozaks.com/ModernGames/ModernGames-3.html

 

Pictures below are from http://www.kippenencyclopedie.nl/php/index.php?title=Hoofdpagina

Hackle Feather --

 

 

Saddle Feather --

 

 

Below infomation from http://ps.fass.org/content/33/3/472.abstract

 

Genetics of Birchen Plumage Pattern in the Fowl

1. Elliot Kimball

 

 

BIRCHEN phenotype consists in fractionated pyle-zoned restriction, associated with black ground color and laced breast feathers in both sexes (American Standard of Perfection, 1953). It is found in the Birchen Game and Game Bantam as silver-on-black, and the same pattern appears in the Gray Japanese Bantam. Identity of patterning obtains in the Brown-red or Brown-breasted Game, except that silver is replaced by gold. Experimental evidence submitted below demonstrates Brown-red to be a gold variety of Birchen, and since multiplicity of breed names applied to the same basic pattern is cumbersome and confusing, the present report designates the variants as Silver Birchen (Birchen) and Golden Birchen (Brown-red), respectively.

Bateson and Punnett (1906) found Golden Birchen dominant to Black-breasted Red on a monofactorial autosomal basis. Illustrations of wild type striped Black-breasted Red, and non-striped black Golden Birchen chicks were published by Bateson (1910). Hagedoorn (1909) reported Black-breasted Red dominant to Golden Birchen, . . .

 

 

Chris

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris09 

You dont see the Gold in the Hackles, Saddle Feathers and the Wing Bow?

There should be NO Gold in a Birchen at all. 

Also shouldn't have lacing in there chest either but that is besides the point.

 

If you like I could pull out the APA standard and re-look up the description they have for Birchin. 

 

 

Chris

Why is it then?  That

BIRCHEN phenotype consists in fractionated pyle-zoned restriction, associated with black ground color and laced breast feathers in both sexes (American Standard of Perfection, 1953). It is found in the Birchen Game and Game Bantam as silver-on-black, and the same pattern appears in the Gray Japanese Bantam. Identity of patterning obtains in the Brown-red or Brown-breasted Game, except that silver is replaced by gold. Experimental evidence submitted below demonstrates Brown-red to be a gold variety of Birchen, and since multiplicity of breed names applied to the same basic pattern is cumbersome and confusing, the present report designates the variants as Silver Birchen (Birchen) and Golden Birchen (Brown-red), respectively.

Bateson and Punnett (1906) found Golden Birchen dominant to Black-breasted Red on a monofactorial autosomal basis. Illustrations of wild type striped Black-breasted Red, and non-striped black Golden Birchen chicks were published by Bateson (1910). Hagedoorn (1909) reported Black-breasted Red dominant to Golden Birchen, . . .

Quote:

Originally Posted by dretd 

So I guess I am really confused about why you are saying that Birchen is a color and it can only be Silver and then you say a Gold/en Birchen is a Brown Red? It appears that these two terms can be used synonymously.

 

You are basically telling Chickenextreme they are wrong about saying the bird is a Gold Birchen color but then you say a Gold Birchen is a Brown Red and then go on to say is can be a color and a pattern both. What if Chickenextreme is referring to Birchen as a pattern and giving it the adjective Gold, and you are saying that the Color is Birchen because by your definition the color Birchen is only Silver and if it is the pattern Gold Birchen you only want to refer to it as a Brown Red. The link you provided calls the color/pattern Golden Birchen and only parenthetically qualifies it as Red Brown. This is why it is so confusing.

 

 

Ok first I used Golden which can be and in most cases is different than Gold.

Birds Below Are Not Mine---

Birchen (Silver Birchen)

Brown Red (Gold Birchen)

Golden Birchen

Blue Birchen

Birchen (by itself no color in-front of the word Birchen) as a pattern, color or "gene" refers to a Silver based fowl and it is just like saying as Silver Birchen.

hdowden---

Remember that Birchen is Brown Red based (crow-wing)

The 3rd pick is a Blue Wheaten which is based on a Black Breasted Red (Duck-wing) and not a Brown Red (Crow-wing)

4th pick is a Fawn which is based on a Black Breasted Red (Duck-wing) and not a Brown Red (Crow-wing)

5ht pick is a Red Pyle which is based on Black Breasted Red (Duck-wing) and not a Brown Red (Crow-wing) 

In the birds below note the difference in the wing, one as gold at the very end of the wing (a area called the wing-bay) the other doesn't.

Black Breasted Red 

Brown Red

Chris

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris09 

You dont see the Gold in the Hackles, Saddle Feathers and the Wing Bow?

There should be NO Gold in a Birchen at all. 

Also shouldn't have lacing in there chest either but that is besides the point.

 

If you like I could pull out the APA standard and re-look up the description they have for Birchin. 

 

 

Chris

From the Chicken calulator website http://kippenjungle.nl/basisEN.htm#berkenEN :

The base for a black chicken is a favorable allele of the "Black Extension"-gene symbol E. The most melanizing and most dominant form, the so called "Extended black" symbol E, while making the females largely black, it turns the males into mere melanized wildtype looking ones, but with a black wing triangle (crow wing). Other melanizers have to close the deal. A number of those are well documented, but many are not. Next in line, on melanizing effect and dominance, are the "Birchen" alleles, simplified as one allele symbol E^R. Birchen animals look like extended black ones but are more beautiful: the groundcolor parts are more clean. The hen has a groundcolor neck also, else she is black. Both sexes can have groundcolor lacing on the upper breast. By selection this lacing can cover the whole body, or could be absent completely

Once again I am really confused about this whole deal, because this information is telling me that there can be lacing on the chest

I also saw this picture from a Blue Birchen Marans website ( http://shop.gabbardhatchingeggs.com/collections/hatching-eggs/products/blue-birchen-marans ) and it also is giving a qualifier Blue on the pattern Birchen and the photo appears to have gold leakage in the hackles and saddle. According to your color supposition, this rooster is not a Birchen but something else. What would you call it if not Birchen? Again, really confused over here:

dretd

The bird that you posted look more like a Blue Golden Birchen than a Blue Birchen. The Gold Leakage could be from a back cross to Brown Red. 

I understand what the Chicken Calculator says about Birchen it is to a point true but in the U.S. and some other countries lacing in the chest of males is a fault but yes it is found in some Birchen fowl and that is why I said, "that is besides the point". 

Chris

i don't like the chicken calculator. i have used it several times and each time it has not been right on any colors for me  so i refuse to use it 

Quote:

Originally Posted by hdowden 

i don't like the chicken calculator. i have used it several times and each time it has not been right on any colors for me  so i refuse to use it 

I know what you mean, The one thing I have found is that  U.K Blue has no lacing but the U.S. Blue does. This can make a big difference in some crosses. 

Chris