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Cream Legbar Working Group: Standard of Perfection - Page 21

post #201 of 1205
10/6/12 at 3:19pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by normanack View Post
Nor has he ever had a hen that looked silver like the cocks. He wonders what would happen to a castrated bird of this strain. [Why?]
That's the first two paragraphs. I'm not sure I've got the F1s, 2s, and 3s correctly labeled.

I think you got the F's right for the generations....  My wild stab at his comparison of the hen's never looking silver like some of the cocks would have a bit to do with the (at that time, I think it has changed recently) influence of the hormones on the feathering during growth as the chick feathered out.  

 

Trying to say if he thinks that the male hormones would give a silver appearance to the neck hackles, then castrate the chick to eliminate the hormones as the chick grows to adult plumage and see that the appearance of silver is NOT there - thus aligning with the females that never show silver.  I think within the past decade they have taken a different view of the internal sexual growth (as influenced by hormones) of chickens at the cellular level...but in his time, he may have thought that it worked in chickens in the same manner as it works in mammals, etc.  

 

Very worthwhile article and I appreciate your annotations.

 

ETA - hope what I wrote makes some sense.  

"Was dich nicht umwirft, macht dich starker"   "What doesn't kill you, makes you stronger."-Friedrich Nietzsche 
My new tag line...added to the end of every sentence--->  "...... after all, they ARE chickens!!!"

 

Here's a link to my BYC page:  http://www.backyardchickens.com/a/chickats-page

Here's a link to my BYC blog of sorts http://www.backyardchickens.com/a/jottings

 

 

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"Was dich nicht umwirft, macht dich starker"   "What doesn't kill you, makes you stronger."-Friedrich Nietzsche 
My new tag line...added to the end of every sentence--->  "...... after all, they ARE chickens!!!"

 

Here's a link to my BYC page:  http://www.backyardchickens.com/a/chickats-page

Here's a link to my BYC blog of sorts http://www.backyardchickens.com/a/jottings

 

 

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post #202 of 1205
10/6/12 at 3:24pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by redchicken9 View Post


I was told that this is not describing the cream legbar as it does not reference the chilean hen, it's an earlier cross. 

 

I'm headed to the mailbox to see if the British Poultry Standards have arrived.  Truly there are nuts to crack here.     Someone says, let's go with what we have and instantly I think the opposite.  It's only two years in.  According to GFF it took almost 2 decades to produce a bird that was genetically stable.  From Punnett and Pease to then a first showing in 1947 to receiving a written standard in 1958, I think this is heritage.  The cream legbar has a legacy, which should not be ignored.   With a better guideline of what it is we want (cream legbars that are cream), we might all have stock that fits this with careful new importation.   I do not have the skills or desire to re-make the cream legbar from my current stock, plus the aspect of stabilizing the retrofit.  The best viable option seems to be improving stock with a non-red enhanced roo.  The current disappointment in the GFF stock is that I'd want the genetic capacity to produce a cream legbar.  As advertised a "supermodel" does not need to show up at the door, but a model that holds the genetic potential towards improvement is expected.

 

On the other hand, I think we have beautiful birds here.  Ok some things like form can be improved, but can we stabilize the red enhancement?  or is it too unknown?  My birds are rusty or mottled, they do not seem crisp.  A white feather in the tail may look flashy or fun, but white splashed in the primaries or rust mottled in many places seems without consistency.  Since it can take decades to produce a genetically stable bird, I wonder if even with a vision of a red/rust/chestnut within our birds can it happen or if it is even more painful than the alternative to begin anew?  Is red enhancement a desirable or undesirable trait? Can anyone speak to this?

 

Truly I could champion either position.  More than being an instigator, which is also great (Omaeve), I'd like to be an explorer on this.  Overall, neither exactly matter to me, my pure short term intent is to draft a standard we can move towards.  This is a draft, not final, even if not accepted by all parties.  In terms of drafting, it is easiest to draft a cream legbar standard that is based on all aspects of the official UK cream legbar.  Tweaks like egg color allowed.  However, there is no reason why we couldn't try a second version of a better ideal of what is seen in the US currently.  White, well, white seems easy as cake.  Plumage: Web, fluff and shafts of all feathers, in all sections, white.

 

So maybe the form could be cream legbar or legbar and the color be cream, all white, and this third color we see many versions of?  For this third, we probably do not have the consistency of color and type to garner recognition.  We may not even have cream legbars, but they are not unicorns they do exist.  Please, please, if you have what meets the UK standards of cream coloring here in the US, please step up.  Ultimately, we do need to make a move towards a vision.  Maybe, just maybe, more than one could exist. 

 

One added opinion is I do not like silver, to me it is the incorrect form of cream and bleached out.

Probably right about the gold legbar vs. cream....but definitely the article referenced by Normanck refers to his development the cream legbar since it talks about cream and chilean hen.   Edited for typos sorry.

 

ETA - I still vote that stiltiness gets removed from the draft of the standards.....


Edited by ChicKat - 10/6/12 at 3:26pm

"Was dich nicht umwirft, macht dich starker"   "What doesn't kill you, makes you stronger."-Friedrich Nietzsche 
My new tag line...added to the end of every sentence--->  "...... after all, they ARE chickens!!!"

 

Here's a link to my BYC page:  http://www.backyardchickens.com/a/chickats-page

Here's a link to my BYC blog of sorts http://www.backyardchickens.com/a/jottings

 

 

Reply

"Was dich nicht umwirft, macht dich starker"   "What doesn't kill you, makes you stronger."-Friedrich Nietzsche 
My new tag line...added to the end of every sentence--->  "...... after all, they ARE chickens!!!"

 

Here's a link to my BYC page:  http://www.backyardchickens.com/a/chickats-page

Here's a link to my BYC blog of sorts http://www.backyardchickens.com/a/jottings

 

 

Reply
post #203 of 1205
10/6/12 at 3:29pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChicKat View Post

Probably right about the gold legbar vs. cream....but definitely the article referenced by Normanck refers to his development the cream legbar since it talks about cream and chilean hen.   Edited for typos sorry.

 

ETA - I still vote that stiltiness gets removed from the draft of the standards.....


I think there are at least 2 articles here.  Where is GaryDean26?  Driving or walking to the mailbox next; love seeing the neighbor kids OHV there!

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post #204 of 1205
10/6/12 at 3:47pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by redchicken9 View Post


I think there are at least 2 articles here.  Where is GaryDean26?  Driving or walking to the mailbox next; love seeing the neighbor kids OHV there!


And then the FedEx guy came and I wondered who should get the LiteBrite refill pegs and paper and who should get the British Poultry Standards? 

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post #205 of 1205
10/6/12 at 3:49pm

There's only so much I can contribute to such a discussion at the moment, as I'm so new to the Legbars, but you also need to look at why CLB breeders across the pond are having to keep two lines (one for show and one for fertility, as I read). Does it have to do with a standard the is impossible to breed to without doing so in such a manner that the fertility in good show quality birds is non-existent? 

 

I like the birds we're seeing here in the states with the extra color. I would like to see this adopted in the standard, even if a separate variety from "cream", and I'm also planning on pulling as many white birds from my stock for a line as well. I sure fancy an all white bird. It will not be hard to get together the 5 for 5 with a white variety.

 

If you're going towards a standard without the coloration, as it says in the UK SOP for this breed, I think that variety will have a rougher path to acceptance, but I'm willing to give a long-haul effort on all three.

M 'n M Poultry

 

Cream Legbar Working Group: Standard of Perfection

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M 'n M Poultry

 

Cream Legbar Working Group: Standard of Perfection

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post #206 of 1205
10/6/12 at 4:08pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChicKat View Post

ETA - I still vote that stiltiness gets removed from the draft of the standards.....

 

All I can think about when I read "stiltiness" is Stilton Cheese. So the birds can have no suggestion of blue cheese about them.

Chicken. Chicken. Chicken.

Great common-sense chicken blog: http://naturalchickenkeeping.blogspot.com
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Chicken. Chicken. Chicken.

Great common-sense chicken blog: http://naturalchickenkeeping.blogspot.com
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post #207 of 1205
10/6/12 at 4:21pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChicKat View Post

I will type this out later...but please go to this link-- scroll to the picture of the pullet and read what Punnett said about the color -- it is written between the picture of the pullet and the picture of the cockerel

 

http://www.ias.ac.in/jarch/jgenet/41/1.pdf

 

thanks for the read, I am having a good time reading thru it..

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post #208 of 1205
10/6/12 at 4:34pm
Thread Starter 

I'm not thinking well, two quick thoughts, the last for a bit, but won't white lose the autosex aspect?  Is there any chance cream legbars have been crossed with gold legbars for the coloration we see?  I'd have to go through the male description point by point, but some things are similar.  Female plumage is very near to mine.  Also no plates for these birds within the BPS (c'est domage!).
 

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post #209 of 1205
10/6/12 at 4:40pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by redchicken9 View Post

I'm not thinking well, two quick thoughts, the last for a bit, but won't white lose the autosex aspect?  Is there any chance cream legbars have been crossed with gold legbars for the coloration we see?  I'd have to go through the male description point by point, but some things are similar.  Female plumage is very near to mine.  Also no plates for these birds within the BPS (c'est domage!).
 

I Just finished reading the PDF paper with Punnett works, there is no a single reference about "Cream" or gold legbars on this paper, on the same paper it was described that the legbar was created by using a brown leghorn and a Barred rock, so the first legbars were infact not cream at all, what I want to know is at what time was the recessive cream gene added to this breed or if it was added at all..

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post #210 of 1205
10/6/12 at 4:54pm
Thread Starter 

OK, without full answer, but think GaryDean26 knows more.  Research on chickens by Punnett went on for years.  The one paper here linked is dated 1940.  The gold Campine and the barred Rock were crossed in 1929, which made the Cambar.  After which my history knowledge is slim.  Punnett, I believe, made a dozen or so autosexing breeds.  In the BPS, there are gold and silver Legbars, with cream Legbar having a dose of Araucana blood to give it its crest and egg color.

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