Cream Legbar Working Group: Standard of Perfection - Page 9

Quote:

Originally Posted by redchicken9 

ChicKat, do you think you could post Ice and go through the first 1-15 lines.  Anyone else available to comment on standards and what they say and how clear they are?  All help, helps!

Yes...I will be back with a picture of him full length if I have a good one--- else I will get one tomorrow after some meetings I have in the morning.  :O)

Quote:

Originally Posted by blackbirds13 

I think egg color could have some give in the range of blues that are acceptable, and I'd rather not re-invent the wheel if there is a good color chart we could adopt. I’m for not including olive eggs as I agree that could include and help eliminate mixed birds.

 

I am not a fan of creating a 'variety' of cream legbars at this point - i.e. Gold, Silver, Cream, production, show, etc.  I think we should be striving towards one ‘simple’ common goal and deviate personally but collectively stick to one ideal.

 

Do we strive for a more true Cream which is my preference or attempt to include these variances we have in the US? I don't think many of the birds we have, mine included meet the ideal if you reference the UK SOP. I am interested to see how much deviation there is between what 'we' have and what the SOP specifically states.  I think we are starting from a general standpoint of our birds ‘en masse’ being subpar to what the UK SOP states. In attempting to get the gold out I am wondering if breeding towards one part of the standard (UK or proposed US) may make reaching other stated aspects more difficult or easier to accomplish as we make decisions to accept or alter the standing SOP.  The pictures of the Legbars from Avalon, Huckleberry and Jordan Farms are all considered too gold for the UK Standards which allows chestnut on the shoulders but not on the saddle or hackle which all those roosters do have, and some of those Avalon hens have gold hackles another no-no…this is going to be an interesting discussion as we go ahead. I’m excited for it.  When referencing the standards or proposed standards once they have been broken down we could create a catalog of images under each that help everyone see the comparative differences within, especially when it comes to type and the like.

We don't have to create the Gold or Silver Legbars...they already exist and were developed around the same time as the Cream Legbar.  I don't believe we have any of those here unless "our" i.e. too golden, Legbars were not as 'pure' as we would like on import per the U.K. standard.  Perhaps the geneticists can chime in here to see how we can get closer to the UK standard with the limited stock we have available to us, or if we will need to outcross to another breed (thinking one of the foundation breeds -- leghorn or barred rock) to get rid of the red.  Then we sacrifice "purity" for six or seven generations of breeding back to 100% Cream Legbars.  If it can be done without outcrossing then we should breed to the standard until it is consistent; which I think is a requirement for APA acceptance anyway (need confirmation here.)  If there isn't a chance of breeding that red out we have to decide if the crele coloration which I'm seeing in all the photos too, is what will be the North American Cream Legbar unless or until more importation is done.

The limited gene pool can be overcome by judicious culling and breeding.  It was done with the Cheval Canadien horse and Portugese Water Dog (two critters I am familiar with.)  Humans supposedly experienced a genetic bottleneck some 70,000 years ago as have many other species over time.   Inbreeding, when done correctly, can actually strengthen positive attributes...the operative word here is correctly.

The way I see it there are several things that need to be accomplished and a to-do list would help.   Volunteers can then figure out where they want help.

Here's a preliminary that I'm seeing develop:

1.  Standard Committee

     a.  Confirm UK standard as accurate and current

     b.  Place UK Standard in APA Format

          i  Americanize/define descriptors like colors, etc.

          ii Research and summarize history of breed

     c.  Draft APA formatted standard and submit to membership for comments period

     d.  Finalize an APA approvable draft standard incorporating consensus of members

     e.  Begin standardizing breeding with the goal of APA acceptance based on approved draft standard

2.  Club Committee --- can't have a membership without a club

     a.  Mission statement

     b.  Bylaws

           i officers

          ii webmaster and website if there will be one

         iii membership

             (a) Voting

             (b) benefits of membership

             (c) newsletter?

             (d) dues

                   -- what will dues support?  Registry, website, forums?

     c.  Club name & logo

          i copyright?

     d. Legal status of Club if any - Non-profit education?

I can help with club related stuff.

And last post before beddy-by (yes, I'm tired.)

I would love some way of  tracking the foundation lines, but I believe a database registry of all Cream Legbars would quickly become unwieldy and expensive to maintain.  What would be the purpose and use of such a database?  With larger, limited offspring livestock like horses, sheep and goats I can see the point, but I'm not sure I see the point with tracking chickens.  I track my own animals based on production qualities with details like first egg, latest egg for season, broody, aggressive roo, faults, etc. upon which to base breeding decisions.  Not sure what benefit there would be to a chicken registry --- what information would be collected and why?  

HERE is a photo of a nice looking CL rooster with the proper tail angle, as it is not my photo I do not want to just copy and paste but you can follow the link:

http://www.chickens-hampshire.co.uk/

Quote:

Originally Posted by redchicken9 

Dear Walt, ignorance will no longer be bliss for me!    Thanks for the tail information, I suspected as much as 90 degrees!
 

Where are you in Norcal. I'm in Santa Rosa.

Walt

Quote:

Originally Posted by Laingcroft 

The way I see it there are several things that need to be accomplished and a to-do list would help.   Volunteers can then figure out where they want help.

 

Here's a preliminary that I'm seeing develop:

 

1.  Standard Committee

     a.  Confirm UK standard as accurate and current

     b.  Place UK Standard in APA Format

          i  Americanize/define descriptors like colors, etc.

          ii Research and summarize history of breed

     c.  Draft APA formatted standard and submit to membership for comments period

     d.  Finalize an APA approvable draft standard incorporating consensus of members

     e.  Begin standardizing breeding with the goal of APA acceptance based on approved draft standard

 

2.  Club Committee --- can't have a membership without a club

     a.  Mission statement

     b.  Bylaws

           i officers

          ii webmaster and website if there will be one

         iii membership

             (a) Voting

             (b) benefits of membership

             (c) newsletter?

             (d) dues

                   -- what will dues support?  Registry, website, forums?

     c.  Club name & logo

          i copyright?

     d. Legal status of Club if any - Non-profit education?

 

I can help with club related stuff.

#1 is a very good plan.

Walt

Just so everyone is clear I am the one to send your information to in order to be on the list of interested parties/contributors/potential club members.  Name, address, phone number, e-mail, source and quantity of stock, and any ways you are willing to help.  All information will be kept confidential.

ETA: If you already sent your information to Dahlisgrams, I have it.

And if you don't have stock but want to be included in this project send your info anyway!

Rinda

Absolutely.  I had an inspiration today--- and I'm sure that blackbirds13 can come up with a fabulous design.  My art major is undergrad, my Masters -- totally different field (go figure) 

We can collaborate, or once a club is formed - then the newly formed club can vote on desired logo from all the folks who want to submit a contender.  Just a guideline--wouldn't it be cool to have one as recognizeable as Pepsi, chevrolet, toyota or even ford?  :O)  

I will work on some wordsmithing for the mission statement too, I do have some experience in Organization Development (my masters degree in that field).  Then again once a club is formed that one, among all contenders can be adopted, modified, we can slice and dice from the submissions...etc.  

Also I have a picture of Ice from May....I will put it up....  Then this afternoon, I will get one--  He has changed a lot since then... wattles larger, spurs bigger, etc.