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Biodiversity vs. Classic Animal breeding - Page 7

post #61 of 77
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arielle View Post

I will speak up just so you can slam me. 

 

I think one of the purposes of BOb BLosl' efforts is to not only preserve old heritage lines but to also keep up the genetic diversity.  With the commercial lines of poultry  which far outnumber the "heritage" or "antique" birds, the possibility for a diaster is very possible. THere is a very good reason why protocols are in place to protect commercial flocks. 

Understand that I am not downing commercial flocks at all. THey can produce our food supply very cost effectively. 

 

But I also recognize the value of backyard chickens should a disaster occur. In theory having a wide variety of populations of any animal provides the genetic variation to survive diseases, or local disasters. 

 

Variety is the spice of life. I don't think there must be only ONE way to breed animals. All depends on your goals and limits financially and space wise and similar resources. 

 

I think it is unfortunate that some people perservere in  jabs; I struggle to write and share ideas depite 4 strokes. Tell me you would be so lucky as to be semi functional after 4 strokes. 

 

I am here to learn and share ideas. THis thread is turning out to be just another opportunity to slam other theories in breeding. 

 

One of the breedsof horses that I mentioned above became recognized as the best producers of jumpers and dressage horses in the world BECAUSE they didn't limit themselves to native stock. THey searched for the best lines in other countries and brought them home to test them. THey put dollars into research and then implimented the findings into selecting genetically healthier stallions to alter the population. TO produce a physically strong horse, that can handle the training all the way to international level competition. No small feat. THese horses were bred for performance. ANd when investigations genetiiically showed that the genes for jumping interferes with dressage performance, the books were split. Jumpers beget jumpers; dressage beget dressage.  Heavy selection and willingness to use outside blood to bring in the necessary genes to add to the native pool created a superior sport horse, one that surpasses the closed registries that will not use much outside blood. 

 

THis sounds like the beginning of a lot of chicken breeds I've read about in the old books.Sometimes you need new blood to make improvements so that the given domestic species can produce  better in a given area (environment and trait). 

 

I was hoping for interesting information  on this thread. . . . it seems this is another thread not worth my time. 

 Today my wife said look out the window by the NEW bird feeder look at the pigeon's. I looked and saw five Mourning Doves sitting on my window Air Conditioner waiting their turn to get to the bird feeder so they can no-ck some feed on the ground and go down there and eat it. I looked at them and the first thing I thought of is the  Passenger Pigeon its gone. Yet years ago their where millions of them.

 

Old breeds of Poultry will one day die out and the only way to preserve them is to have back lotters and hobbyist raise them to keep them from going in to thin air.

 

They are worried about this in rare breeds of cattle and hogs I think.

 

When people go to large poultry shows they can at least see some of these old breeds. I saw some Light Sussex at our show that one of our members entered. One judge from Iowa said one of her females was the best Light Sussex he has ever seen. So at least she is doing her part to keep a very very rare breed going. We hope to bring in two strains of Black Jersey Giants this spring for two club members. I got the Mottle Javas coming in a old strain from upper Alabama where the owner has been dead for some time.

 

It will not be the end of the world if these breeds die off like Rhode Island Whites. I am not going to shoot myself if this breed goes to the way side because it was really not much of a breed to start with. In my view it should be removed from the Standard of Perfect on. All they are is White Rocks and White Wyandotte crosses and they dont have any shape like a Red.

 

Some need to be preserved.

 

I got a email today from a fellow who wants some of my White Rock Bantams and my White Leghorn Bantams. He use to have Ken Cookes White Leghorn Bantams years ago and wants that old strain. My strain is pretty much his old line so at least he can have them to work with and keep going on the west coast. If he keeps them pure and I think he will I can get a male from him in ten years and cross them onto my line. Therefor, there is a distance of over 2,000 miles a different climate, different feed and water and a different set of eye balls breeding them.

 

Is this Bio Diversity at its best? Is this a sub line or sub strain of mine being brought in. What is the correct terminology? I dont know but to me it means one thing fresh new blood or vigor.

 

It would be the same if I got a male from the House of Champion in Colorado and crossed it into my old line that is somewhat between 20 and 30 years old. However, there gene pool is not my gene pool and I am sure even though they are a white chicken I would have issues in faults that would rise to the surface. By me using birds that came from me in the first place I should not have as much problems with defects in my view. I still dont know what this means or is called in genetic. Maybe its Genetic Diversity or Gen-tic Deviance.

 

Happy at least I have a new partner in White Leghorns. My old partner quite as he got ****** off with judges picking best of breed birds that would be disqualified.

 

Enjoy reading your tread and trying to open the pour es of my brain to learn more.

post #62 of 77

Merry Christmas to you all and thanks for sharing your thoughts on Genetics this year this has been a good thread. bob blosl

post #63 of 77

Bob, per your thoughts in post 61, I think I finally get it. I kept reading your Heritage thread and it took a long time to pull together the nuggets to understand your philosphy in breeding which was opposite to the cross breeding and food production goals I learned 30 years ago.

 

Did I get it right? :  THe key to breeding the old ESTABLISHED lines is to keep line breeding. When the problem genes have been removed, then breeding is much easier for a newbie to keep the line strong IF an experienced person can help the newbie see the important differences bird to bird. I am at a point that I can see little differences but have no one to tell me which are the important ones; which are the preferred attributes; (I hope to learn this.)  THe line breeding works and animals stay healthy when related lines are reintroduced. THey are less likely to have new genes that may actually introduce  a problem ( because it was already culled out). So I am getting it.  THis is why the old lines can be bred this way and SHOULD be bred this way. THe key is to have another flock to swap with. 

 

I also see value in rotational breeding ( or what ever the perferred term).  A a newbie I can see I have years of trying to understand the selection process and rotational breeding maybe all that I have in lieu of trading with another breeder; to maximize the survival rate in case of a disaster.

 

I am reminded of the Lippizan stallions performing live.  I was in awe. A musical performance of the highest caliber, none better.  Standing ovations over and over.  While these horses are clearly of one breed with more characteristics in common than different after 400years of selection, I could see some variety from horse to horse. Even their talent for the high school movements not every horse could do.

The riders learned from the older riders how to ride and how to train a horse. Start with giving a newbie a trained horse to learn on; then when proficient, give him a young horse and the older rider CONTINUES to supervise the young rider thru the years of training of that young horse to the highest level.  THere are not many Lipizzians in the world. THey are a rare breed of horse and also need preservation.  In this case maintaining diversity is imperative to the survival of this living art.

 

My point in relation to poultry-- Every gene pool will be a little different as you outlined above. We need more breeders to keep a gene pool. And , Bob you are connecting potential breeders to the birds worth preserving. Thank you.

NPIP Tested Clean

 

             Bourbon Red and Sweetgrass Turkeys

 

             Black Copper Marans, Buff Orpingtons and Speckled Sussex    

  

 

Grow where you are planted. --Unknown

Reply

NPIP Tested Clean

 

             Bourbon Red and Sweetgrass Turkeys

 

             Black Copper Marans, Buff Orpingtons and Speckled Sussex    

  

 

Grow where you are planted. --Unknown

Reply
post #64 of 77
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arielle View Post

Bob, per your thoughts in post 61, I think I finally get it. I kept reading your Heritage thread and it took a long time to pull together the nuggets to understand your philosophy in breeding which was opposite to the cross breeding and food production goals I learned 30 years ago.

 

Did I get it right? :  The key to breeding the old ESTABLISHED lines is to keep line breeding. When the problem genes have been removed, then breeding is much easier for a newbie to keep the line strong IF an experienced person can help the newbie see the important differences bird to bird. I am at a point that I can see little differences but have no one to tell me which are the important ones; which are the preferred attributes; (I hope to learn this.)  The line breeding works and animals stay healthy when related lines are reintroduced. They are less likely to have new genes that may actually introduce  a problem ( because it was already culled out). So I am getting it.  This is why the old lines can be bred this way and SHOULD be bred this way. The key is to have another flock to swap with. 

 

I also see value in rotational breeding ( or what ever the preferred term).  A a newbie I can see I have years of trying to understand the selection process and rotational breeding maybe all that I have in lieu of trading with another breeder; to maximize the survival rate in case of a disaster.

 

I am reminded of the Lippizan stallions performing live.  I was in awe. A musical performance of the highest caliber, none better.  Standing ovations over and over.  While these horses are clearly of one breed with more characteristics in common than different after 400years of selection, I could see some variety from horse to horse. Even their talent for the high school movements not every horse could do.

The riders learned from the older riders how to ride and how to train a horse. Start with giving a newbie a trained horse to learn on; then when proficient, give him a young horse and the older rider CONTINUES to supervise the young rider thru the years of training of that young horse to the highest level.  There are not many Lipizzians in the world. THey are a rare breed of horse and also need preservation.  In this case maintaining diversity is imperative to the survival of this living art.

 

My point in relation to poultry-- Every gene pool will be a little different as you outlined above. We need more breeders to keep a gene pool. And , Bob you are connecting potential breeders to the birds worth preserving. Thank you.

700

700

I understand what you are saying. It took me three years to figure out what I was looking for in Buff Brahmas and this year I think its coming together when I see a young bird. What to keep what to get rid of. I have a chart I made twenty years ago. However, the digital reproduction is goofed up. I will try to re due it and get it back to simple black and white. This is a simple system I learned from a commerical turkey breeder in Wisconsin over 20 years ago when I lived up there. You just rotate a male to the right each year and put the one or two females back into the pen their eggs came out of. The goal is to have a strain that is uniform and the females you hope are real good and look like peas in a pod.

 

Many of these old breeds that are around right now are not super strong in appearance or color but I was thinking today if you had a strain of Light Sussex or Mottle Javas or Rose Comb Rhode Island Reds that would have a average score for say 10 birds from your breeding flock of 92 that's pretty good. Some strains are stronger of course but at least that's something that is true to type and breed to start with. I got a picture in the male today from a lady asking if these would be good Light Brahmas to start with. I wrote her back and told here that is about what I started with when I was 12 years old. You can look at the bird and make your own conclusions.

 

I just got a email back from the fellow that I took pictures for yesterday he like the pictures and want six of the birds. So I guess that is good news on my breeding part. The leghorn strain is one he remembers as a boy when he was showing as a junior. The owner of that strain is no longer breeding and his birds are about totally gone a old strain going back to when I was a boy out there in the 1960s. you hate to see old lines like that die. So maybe he will take the tour ch and keep them going for 20 or 30 years as he is young.

 

Its so much easy er for a new person to take on a breed that has been line breed for over 20 years than to cross a bird from here and there and start all over again. It can be done but I dont know many people who have done it. The last one and a old one is Paul Hardy of Georgia and his Silver Spangled Hamburgs over 50 years of breeding. I hope they keep on going.

 

Merry Christmas. Off to work. bob


Edited by Robert Blosl - 12/24/12 at 11:03am
post #65 of 77

I have one Silver spangle Hamburg--from McMurray.  We love WHitey.  He was my intro to Hamburgs--spry, quick, hard to catch, easy to get along with. THen I saw a REAL SSH at the New England Bantam fall show 2012.  I stood and stared. THIS was what WHitey was supposed to look like. GORGEOUS cock bird.  Only 1 at the show. 

 

 THe diagram looks like a rotational breeding plan.  Slowly over time the pens will start to become alike. One pen may improve faster than another. BUt eventually, with the young males moved by one pen, the birds will become more alike over a very long time. I think it was Chris McCrary that said he follows this method and one of his pens is much better, so that the culled hens were better than  one of the other pens.  THis reality shakes me up a bit about the method. 

 

I do know that I lined bred sheep over 15 years and the close breeding resulted in a lethel double recessive. A learning moment. The quick fix was dilute with a completely unrelated ram ( different breed) until I could devise a plan to identify the carriers. 

 

IMO, am I right?, that these old lines have the worst of the worst already removed genetically? Leaving only minor issues to deal with?

NPIP Tested Clean

 

             Bourbon Red and Sweetgrass Turkeys

 

             Black Copper Marans, Buff Orpingtons and Speckled Sussex    

  

 

Grow where you are planted. --Unknown

Reply

NPIP Tested Clean

 

             Bourbon Red and Sweetgrass Turkeys

 

             Black Copper Marans, Buff Orpingtons and Speckled Sussex    

  

 

Grow where you are planted. --Unknown

Reply
post #66 of 77
Is this thread at the end of the Road?

Edited by Robert Blosl - 12/29/12 at 7:24am
post #67 of 77

here is a reply I sent to a novice breeder who was putting a new rooster to her hens each year and currently seeing color faults in her birds.

===========================================

 

I agree completely with the previous poster who said you don't need to bring in new blood each year,

 

Your desire for biodiversity is crippling your breeding program. Biodiversity and classic  animal breeding are two different things which will never mesh.

 Let me explain. It's a confusing arena of thought. On the one hand we are told to help save the rare breeds. That we need diversity in the gene pools to make them robust again. That's good as far as it goes. On the other hand, we have folks touting biodiveristy who claim we should breed open pedigrees ( new blood every generation creating an animal as unrelated as possible to the rest of its breed) to create biodiversity within a gene pool resulting in more robust stock. That's good as far as it goes. However,  the two schools of thought can never exist within the same breeding program. Why? Because they spring from different basic philosophic parameters. What? I just want to know how to fix the legs in my chickens! Why do I care about philosophy? Because it deeply affects the results of your breeding program.

      What kind of creatures does classic animal breeding theory produce? Answer: Animals bred to specific "points" or "hallmarks" within a specific biological framework which will produce a creature better able to fufill its stated purpose.

     A better dairy cow, a better hunting dog, a better laying chicken, etc. Classic animal breeding theory says that while we are breeding a more robust animal, we are also perfecting the traits which make it easier and more profitable for that animal to succeed in its stated purpose and that all hallmarks of a breed are important to this purpose. With better structure, the dog runs more swiftly and scents out its prey more keenly. The racehorse runs more speedly while not fighting against an inferior structure which threatens to slow it down. The bird accomplishs its task to make more meat or eggs because its structure allows this. Structure is tied to color in that coloring can indicate genetic inheritance in fowl.  An inheritance which can affect the utitlity for which the breeder is striving.

    So what does biodiversity breeding accomplish? These animals are bred under a philosophy which honors health and utitlity. The purpose is to breed a land-race which is robust and most able to do its job correctly. (notice  the term is "land-race", not "breed", they are two different things and this is important)

  Sounds like the same thing doesn't it? It's not. Why? Because biodiversity advocates and breeders do not honor breed hallmarks except as they apply to robustness and utility. They are happy to create a race of creatures which perform their function without regard to specific hallmarks of the breed. Ah, there it is in a nutshell.   Without specific attention or regard to specific hallmarks of the breed.

    Say what?  Here's your answer: Classic animal breeding theory says every hallmark is part of the more perfect performance of a well-bred creature.

Biodiversity says only those hallmarks which are an interagral part of the creatures health and utility are important.

   So while the two schools of thought seem to start out with the same goals, they quickly diverge into two separate camps of breeding philosophy which can never exist in the same breeding program. The allure of the philosophy of  "biodiversity" is seductive, but has no place in classic animal breeding. Classic animal breeding much more often uses the term "genetic diversity" instead of "biodversity".

   This is why you are having problems in your classic animal breeding program when you are swapping out roosters every season. For a biodiversity person, you have no problems. Leg color doesn't matter, nor does comb shape, number of toes, color of feathers, etc. as long as the bird lays the correct amount of eggs and/or puts on the proper amount of meat before butchering plus remains healthy thru all this.

     Now you see the problem...but have one more question...How do I maintain biodiversiy within my flock; breed classic animal breeding and  still have lovely birds.

 In mammals, this is a bit more complicated to answer. Fortunately, we are talking about birds, which have a plethora of sex-linked genes and an exceptionally wide genetic base as a species.  Birds, fowl to be specific, can be inbred much deeper than many other creatures.  In other kinds of creatures, there are breeding schemes which rest on the "in-breed 3 generations, then outcross" philosophy. In fowls, this need not be the case. Granted, some breeds of fowl have smaller gene pools than others.  But switching to biodiversity breeding schemes will not solve any genetic bottleneck problems...it will only difuse the breed hallmarks and make them harder to retrieve in the breed's small gene pool. So what to do?

 Selection is the key. Prof. Gerald Bell said it well. He is well regarded in animal breeding circles,  "

"It is the varied opinion of breeders as to what constitutes the ideal representative of the breed, and their selection of breeding stock that maintains breed diversity."
Jerold S. Bell, DVM
Tufts Cummings School of Veterinary Medicine, N. Grafton, MA

 

And again, concerning developing "excellence in the abstract" in animal breeding (this time, racehorses),

"My own view is that you must try to secure the best and most suitable breeding through both sire and dam, bring it both inbreeding and outcrossing as near and perfect in the abstract as you can. Success will depend on whether any particular foal takes after his dam and the majority of his maternal ascendants or after his sire and the majority of his paternal ascendants."

The Aga Khan  "Memoirs"

================

   The conclusion, it is not the diversity one brings to their breeding program...but the selection one makes within their breeding program..which creates excellence  and maintains genetic diversity in breeding animals.

   However you say, there must be some need to balance the two ideas of selection and diversity! How shall we then proceed? There must be some kind of balance needed between the need for genetic diversity and selection for us to gain best success in our breeding programs! Yes, there is. The answer is selection within your breeding program when using classic animal breeding theory.

Fortunately for us, greater minds than ours in poultry breeding have been studying, experimenting and perfecting that conundrum for over 100 years. They have laid down their findings in lit and discussions for us to use. Have found the breeding laws which help us navigate murky genetic waters. One of my favorite authors on this subject is Danne Honours uncle's uncle.  Danne is the Dean of all facets of breeding Buff poultry. His uncle's uncle name was Wid Card. A veteran poultryman and judge of high repute, Judge Card made it a habit to travel the shows and spend time discussing how the laws of poultry breeding were simple. Then he wrote a great little book on the subject whch Cornell allowed to be scanned online for free. A great aid to breeders, even tho it was written in 1912..because it focuses on the laws of breeding. Results which will not change when matings are done. Here it is: http://archive.org/details/cu31924003158312

Laws governing the breeding of standard fowls; a book covering outbreeding ; inbreeding and line breeding of all recognized breeds of domestic fowls, with chart, 1912 (1912)

Author: Card, Wetherell Henry, 1860-
Publisher: [Manchester, Conn., The Herald printing company
====================

 Now we have the "why" and the "fix" for your leg color problem in your Dorkings.

Best wishes for continued success with your flock,

 Karen Tewart in western PA, USA
 

From Card's book, Page 6, regarding definition of Bar Sinister

" popular and erroneous term for bend sinister .
Definition of BAR SINISTER
1: a heraldic charge held to be a mark of bastardy
2: the fact or condition of being of illegitimate birth

 

 


Edited by 3riverschick - 1/4/13 at 8:13am

Walt Boese Pure English strain Light Sussex

2014: Inaugurating what will become the Tewart flock of pure

English strain  Light Sussex sourced from North American stock.

"We are all just walking each other home." unknown

Reply

Walt Boese Pure English strain Light Sussex

2014: Inaugurating what will become the Tewart flock of pure

English strain  Light Sussex sourced from North American stock.

"We are all just walking each other home." unknown

Reply
post #68 of 77

I recognize the importance of keeping a clean 'pure' line and do use inbreeding, line breeding etc. in my programs.  That being said, the other day I was listening this awesome podcast from U of South FL College of Medicine: on Genetics and Infectious Disease. As usual at some point my mind starts drifting to what the implications of this is toward our birds. Okay, this podcast is talking about humans but also refers to animals and certain zoonoses (diseases that can be passed animal or insect to people) and people's susceptibility  due to their particular genetics.

Some people are thought to be genetically more susceptible to certain infectious diseases. I am sure it is the same with animals.

I have read things on certain breeds of chickens dying out due to some particular disease. The world is changing and some parasites, bacteria, and viruses are becoming much more resistant and prevalent due to global environmental changes, overuse/ misuse of antibiotics and other drugs, and other reasons..

 So what I am getting at, is this is something that is going to have to be addressed in breeding programs of all animals as the world is changing and we need to be aware of what our birds are susceptible to and what we can do to decrease the chances of them being susceptible to certain diseases. This might be done by breeding out to a breed that is not susceptible to that particular disease. I don't know for certain because it will have to be tested etc. but it makes sense.  

Apparently, people can get gene testing done for around $300 or so to see what they could be susceptible to.  Maybe in the future there will be one for our birds that would be affordable lol or perhaps 'gene therapy' (once perfected) will become cheap for pets but probably not any time really soon. Anyhow, It is good food for thought.

 

Here is the podcast link takes a little bit of time to load but well worth it if you like genetics and diseases.

http://idpodcasts.net/USF_ID_Podcasts/Main/Entries/2012/9/18_Genetics_and_Infectious_DiseasesJohn_T._Sinnott,_MD,_FACPProfessor_of_MedicineAssociate_Dean,_International_Affairs_University_of_South_Florida_College_of_Medicine.html

Specializing in Solid Black and Blue Marans also have: Wheaten,Golden Cuckoo, Blue/Blk Copper,barred BTB, BTB, blue/blk birchen Marans.  Lavender, white, buff, chocolate, black Orps, Silkies, Key West aka Gypsy chickens, Ameraucanas, Muscovies, Sebastapol Geese, Guineas,Gobblers, Parrots. 

~Sorry not selling eggs or chicks at this time~

 

Reply

Specializing in Solid Black and Blue Marans also have: Wheaten,Golden Cuckoo, Blue/Blk Copper,barred BTB, BTB, blue/blk birchen Marans.  Lavender, white, buff, chocolate, black Orps, Silkies, Key West aka Gypsy chickens, Ameraucanas, Muscovies, Sebastapol Geese, Guineas,Gobblers, Parrots. 

~Sorry not selling eggs or chicks at this time~

 

Reply
post #69 of 77
Quote:
Originally Posted by 3riverschick View Post

here is a reply I sent to a novice breeder who was putting a new rooster to her hens each year and currently seeing color faults in her birds.

===========================================

 

I agree completely with the previous poster who said you don't need to bring in new blood each year,

 

Your desire for biodiversity is crippling your breeding program. Biodiversity and classic  animal breeding are two different things which will never mesh.

 Let me explain. It's a confusing arena of thought. On the one hand we are told to help save the rare breeds. That we need diversity in the gene pools to make them robust again. That's good as far as it goes. On the other hand, we have folks touting biodiveristy who claim we should breed open pedigrees ( new blood every generation creating an animal as unrelated as possible to the rest of its breed) to create biodiversity within a gene pool resulting in more robust stock. That's good as far as it goes. However,  the two schools of thought can never exist within the same breeding program. Why? Because they spring from different basic philosophic parameters. What? I just want to know how to fix the legs in my chickens! Why do I care about philosophy? Because it deeply affects the results of your breeding program.

      What kind of creatures does classic animal breeding theory produce? Answer: Animals bred to specific "points" or "hallmarks" within a specific biological framework which will produce a creature better able to fufill its stated purpose.

     A better dairy cow, a better hunting dog, a better laying chicken, etc. Classic animal breeding theory says that while we are breeding a more robust animal, we are also perfecting the traits which make it easier and more profitable for that animal to succeed in its stated purpose and that all hallmarks of a breed are important to this purpose. With better structure, the dog runs more swiftly and scents out its prey more keenly. The racehorse runs more speedly while not fighting against an inferior structure which threatens to slow it down. The bird accomplishs its task to make more meat or eggs because its structure allows this. Structure is tied to color in that coloring can indicate genetic inheritance in fowl.  An inheritance which can affect the utitlity for which the breeder is striving.

    So what does biodiversity breeding accomplish? These animals are bred under a philosophy which honors health and utitlity. The purpose is to breed a land-race which is robust and most able to do its job correctly. (notice  the term is "land-race", not "breed", they are two different things and this is important)

  Sounds like the same thing doesn't it? It's not. Why? Because biodiversity advocates and breeders do not honor breed hallmarks except as they apply to robustness and utility. They are happy to create a race of creatures which perform their function without regard to specific hallmarks of the breed. Ah, there it is in a nutshell.   Without specific attention or regard to specific hallmarks of the breed.

    Say what?  Here's your answer: Classic animal breeding theory says every hallmark is part of the more perfect performance of a well-bred creature.

Biodiversity says only those hallmarks which are an interagral part of the creatures health and utility are important.

   So while the two schools of thought seem to start out with the same goals, they quickly diverge into two separate camps of breeding philosophy which can never exist in the same breeding program. The allure of the philosophy of  "biodiversity" is seductive, but has no place in classic animal breeding. Classic animal breeding much more often uses the term "genetic diversity" instead of "biodversity".

   This is why you are having problems in your classic animal breeding program when you are swapping out roosters every season. For a biodiversity person, you have no problems. Leg color doesn't matter, nor does comb shape, number of toes, color of feathers, etc. as long as the bird lays the correct amount of eggs and/or puts on the proper amount of meat before butchering plus remains healthy thru all this.

     Now you see the problem...but have one more question...How do I maintain biodiversiy within my flock; breed classic animal breeding and  still have lovely birds.

 In mammals, this is a bit more complicated to answer. Fortunately, we are talking about birds, which have a plethora of sex-linked genes and an exceptionally wide genetic base as a species.  Birds, fowl to be specific, can be inbred much deeper than many other creatures.  In other kinds of creatures, there are breeding schemes which rest on the "in-breed 3 generations, then outcross" philosophy. In fowls, this need not be the case. Granted, some breeds of fowl have smaller gene pools than others.  But switching to biodiversity breeding schemes will not solve any genetic bottleneck problems...it will only difuse the breed hallmarks and make them harder to retrieve in the breed's small gene pool. So what to do?

 Selection is the key. Prof. Gerald Bell said it well. He is well regarded in animal breeding circles,  "

"It is the varied opinion of breeders as to what constitutes the ideal representative of the breed, and their selection of breeding stock that maintains breed diversity."
Jerold S. Bell, DVM
Tufts Cummings School of Veterinary Medicine, N. Grafton, MA

 

And again, concerning developing "excellence in the abstract" in animal breeding (this time, racehorses),

"My own view is that you must try to secure the best and most suitable breeding through both sire and dam, bring it both inbreeding and outcrossing as near and perfect in the abstract as you can. Success will depend on whether any particular foal takes after his dam and the majority of his maternal ascendants or after his sire and the majority of his paternal ascendants."

The Aga Khan  "Memoirs"

================

   The conclusion, it is not the diversity one brings to their breeding program...but the selection one makes within their breeding program..which creates excellence  and maintains genetic diversity in breeding animals.

   However you say, there must be some need to balance the two ideas of selection and diversity! How shall we then proceed? There must be some kind of balance needed between the need for genetic diversity and selection for us to gain best success in our breeding programs! Yes, there is. The answer is selection within your breeding program when using classic animal breeding theory.

Fortunately for us, greater minds than ours in poultry breeding have been studying, experimenting and perfecting that conundrum for over 100 years. They have laid down their findings in lit and discussions for us to use. Have found the breeding laws which help us navigate murky genetic waters. One of my favorite authors on this subject is Danne Honours uncle's uncle.  Danne is the Dean of all facets of breeding Buff poultry. His uncle's uncle name was Wid Card. A veteran poultryman and judge of high repute, Judge Card made it a habit to travel the shows and spend time discussing how the laws of poultry breeding were simple. Then he wrote a great little book on the subject whch Cornell allowed to be scanned online for free. A great aid to breeders, even tho it was written in 1912..because it focuses on the laws of breeding. Results which will not change when matings are done. Here it is: http://archive.org/details/cu31924003158312

Laws governing the breeding of standard fowls; a book covering outbreeding ; inbreeding and line breeding of all recognized breeds of domestic fowls, with chart, 1912 (1912)

Author: Card, Wetherell Henry, 1860-
Publisher: [Manchester, Conn., The Herald printing company
====================

 Now we have the "why" and the "fix" for your leg color problem in your Dorkings.

Best wishes for continued success with your flock,

 Karen Tewart in western PA, USA
 

From Card's book, Page 6, regarding definition of Bar Sinister

" popular and erroneous term for bend sinister .
Definition of BAR SINISTER
1: a heraldic charge held to be a mark of bastardy
2: the fact or condition of being of illegitimate birth

 

 

Very good post. Why people do this is something I could never figure out but they have for years. I call it Russion Rullet breeding. I have a friend who does this with his white rock large fowl every three to five years he adds new blood. He has nothing like he had 20 years ago because he keeps adding new fresh germ plasma from other breeders. That is why when we where kids there where only a hand full of good breeders for each breed. They did things differently and line breed with good record keeping.

 

New blood was never a issue unless they had a partner in another state who had thier line of fowl. There was a R I  Red Breeder in Iowa who had some great Reds and he had a guy 20 years younger then him as his student in Oregon. They exanched 25 chicks ever five to eight years and kept one to cross into thier line then inbreed that bird back to say a female for two years then mixed it into thier line for vigor. They had great success till both got old and retired.


Edited by Robert Blosl - 1/6/13 at 11:38am
post #70 of 77
A,

It was never my intention to " slam" anyone with my comments. I think every point of view deserves to be heard. My point was simply I could not find a movement counter to traditional breeding. I actually was more attempting to defend the alternative POV more than demean it. I apologize if that did not come across we'll in my post. Sometimes things don't translate we'll to this medium. Thanks to Saladin for attempting to explain what I was trying to say, he was correct in his guess at my intent. smile.png
DON'T HATCH IF YOU CAN'T DISPATCH !!

"Duos insequens lepores neutrum capit."
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DON'T HATCH IF YOU CAN'T DISPATCH !!

"Duos insequens lepores neutrum capit."
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