Columbian Maran Project

Very impressive, Lynnrae. I was wondering how your work was going. I moved from Marans to pure English strain Light Sussex in 2011. I agree with what you say about the solid yellow chicks. Tho it is an obvious statement, I have found a way to cull my chicks for color in the chick down. The first hatching season I had them(2013), I had the solid yellow chicks and chicks with just a hint of a taint of darker down at the nape of the neck. they feathered out like proper Light Sussex. Last season(2014) I hatched out a strain-cross with a Canadian -descended pure English hen out of my close-bred pure English Montana birds. Plus an inbreeding of brother to sister of the Montana birds. I got three types of down. The solid yellow, the barest taint of darker down on the nape of the neck ...and a slightly deeper taint(what I would call a "hue" of darker down at the nape of the neck. the first 2 downs feathered out as correct Light Sussex. The third "hue" of darker down at the nape feathered out as the hackle moving down the shoulders and getting scattered grey feathers across the top of the back. This was not from eb. My birds are solidly eWh/eWh S/S Co/Co. It was from adding too much black in my selection process. Tho it was my selection of too much black that was the problem. After much review, I also believe in the Hackle Black gene. Without it Light Sussex would look like Black-Tailed Jap Bantams, I think.
Are you going to move the cuckoo Columbian Marans into a "Delaware-type" birds? Basically, Delaware is just Light Sussex coloring with the barring gene added.
Thanks so much or the update!
Karen Tewart

3riverschick said:

Very impressive, Lynnrae. I was wondering how your work was going. I moved from Marans to pure English strain Light Sussex in 2011. I agree with what you say about the solid yellow chicks. Tho it is an obvious statement, I have found a way to cull my chicks for color in the chick down. The first hatching season I had them(2013), I had the solid yellow chicks and chicks with just a hint of a taint of darker down at the nape of the neck. they feathered out like proper Light Sussex. Last season(2014) I hatched out a strain-cross with a Canadian -descended pure English hen out of my close-bred pure English Montana birds. Plus an inbreeding of brother to sister of the Montana birds. I got three types of down. The solid yellow, the barest taint of darker down on the nape of the neck ...and a slightly deeper taint(what I would call a "hue" of darker down at the nape of the neck. the first 2 downs feathered out as correct Light Sussex. The third "hue" of darker down at the nape feathered out as the hackle moving down the shoulders and getting scattered grey feathers across the top of the back. This was not from eb. My birds are solidly eWh/eWh S/S Co/Co. It was from adding too much black in my selection process. Tho it was my selection of too much black that was the problem. After much review, I also believe in the Hackle Black gene. Without it Light Sussex would look like Black-Tailed Jap Bantams, I think.
Are you going to move the cuckoo Columbian Marans into a "Delaware-type" birds? Basically, Delaware is just Light Sussex coloring with the barring gene added.
Thanks so much or the update!
Karen Tewart

Click to expand...

No, Have no desire to make Barred (cuckoo) Columbian. It is possible at this point. But you can't work on more then a few colors at once concerning Marans. And do it right. I know all about the sex-linking genes of S/S-S/s B/B-B/b. Been working with them for over 14 years. Made Crele, Golden Cuckoo, Same versions with blue. And yes, before I even decided on using a Sussex, had barred Columbian. Clear back in 2004. But wasn't what I wanted. Black Hackle gene is like how it is expressed on birds like Lakenvelders. It's more or less a modifier. But still the bird is considered Columbian gened. I don't even worry about things that are not expressing themselves. Unless they show up and shouldn't be there. Then my concerns turn to just how pure the birds really are? With true Columbian it's a happy medium and no breed produces all perfect offspring. I wouldn't of for more black myself.

Though it is an obvious statement that Columbian colored chicks should be all yellow/white at hatch. In Marans, people may not get it's the same conclusion. Because other breeds that are eb and also Columbian. Like Brahmas and Cochins. To name a couple. The chick's can and do have the markings I described or grayish down. But in those breeds it's been stabilized over thousands of generations and breeders. So it feathers out only Columbian. And in some cases line to line, of the same breeds it doesn't look the same as Columbian based on wheaten. It isn't correct for Columbian Marans to show any markings in their baby down..

What you explained is not purely wheaten based, though recessive to Columbian, and different expressions of more then likely the same gene or modifiers? But without a photo I can't even guess what? Unwanted genes mixed with Columbian express themselves most in the baby down and depending on by how much, is how the adult feathering will look. Most the time they feather out a persudo-Columbian. But doesn't mean it's correct for the breed. Eventually if those odd looking ones aren't selected against, you end up with incompletes. That aren't one thing or another. Example, If I didn't select against brown gene in my Columbian Marans. I would eventually get birds that are incomplete silver brown/Coloumbian. From those, Silver Browns eventually. But I'm not bothering with every possibility. Because your focus needs to be narrowed to get eventually just one feather color right.
The line of Light Sussex I have are a Canadian line I've had since I think 2004? Maybe 2005? Those originally carom England. What you describe I had in Greenfire Sussex. The chicks expressed other genes then just a clean wheaten base. I don't think it was entirely the eb gene. either? Though that was there in those birds. The Canadian line I have, has never shown any of this. I decided long ago not to mix the two lines and eventually sold off the Greenfire birds.
Also when you mix breeds or even lines of the same breed, for whatever reason. Genes that don't normally show themselves. Then sometimes do. Like Hancox told me. Can lay dormant for a long time then express themselves. And have to be culled against.

Very interesting, Lynnrae.
I know both my strains are pure eWh/eWh S/S Co/Co because they have been in competent hands for years before I got them. I know the color balancing required in the underfluff of the eb Columbians to get proper top color. That's why I was so happy my Light Sussex are eWh and why Is was so delighted to see you had picked eWh and not eb to make the Columbian Marans. From what I have seen in my Light Sussex, and I need to check with three color experts to further my education, I believe t is possible to select for too much black in the hackle and see grey feathers scattered cross the top of the back without having genes foreign to the breed interfere. I am just starting my investigate of this and excited to see what the answers are. Thanks so much for sharing!
Best Success,
Karen

Columbian Marans chick on left is exhibiting the effects of a brown gene. Chick on right is cleaner and eWh.

Same thing here, bird on left more severe then one above. Being influenced by eb genes. Which express themselves in pretty much the same way, but varies individual to individual. I cull birds that look like the ones on the left. One on the right maybe also culled. Too soon to make that decision just yet.

The eb (brown gene) being expressed in the baby down in both these chicks. Most severe again on left, less effected on right. It usually shows itself by markings on the head, darker down around the necks and in some cases like the one on the the left, body striping. Both are also considered "incompletes". Though the eb genes are recessive to the Columbian and they still feather out looking like Columbian-ish as adults. But not as clean (smutty like the chicks above, shows less in roosters then it does in hens because of the double silver genes in the males) and sometimes they get the grayish under down. I strongly advise culling against this because it's not correct for Columbian Marans.
I only have it show up in a handful of chicks in my Columbian Marans hatches. Just 4 this time out of 84 chicks. And two that were incompletes with wheaten (can't tell those ones until they feather because the chicks start out all yellow/white at hatch. It shows in the feathering later). Anything that isn't correct for Silver Columbian. That's showing some other color genes, isn't special, more then likely will not make some other accepted color, and needs to be culled from the breeding program for them. This is the point I want to make.

I wasn't concerned with Light Sussex, the discussion isn't about them. Just what you described I have not seen in my Light Sussex. But I have just the one line and haven't mixed it with other Sussex. I don't try to re-invent the wheel with some breeds. They're good enough as is. Keep a closed flock, line breed for their best traits and go from there.
The Columbian Marans are different because they started with a one time breeding to Light Sussex, but been back bred to two lines of Marans. And anyone who knows anything about hybridizing to transfer traits. Knows that when the genes are mixed.( Can even happen with two different lines of the same breed.) Things that don't normally show themselves. Show up from both breeds (lines). The unwanted gene traits have to be culled against and the rest re-stabilized. To be then bred true. This is why I keep the majority of my flocks closed.

Been awhile since I last posted. Gmail glitched or something and lost all my contacts. So if I talked to you earlier this year about possibly having left over birds. Please contact me ASAP privately. This will be a first come, first served offer. Please do not get irate with me if I'm sold out when you contact me. It is what it is.

Persons from GA finally came to get their birds and have a few males, hatched this spring, available (3 males, will have to double check maybe one or two more out there I forgot, will do the final head count and take photos today). However, these male Columbians I consider culls for what I need, because they're clean legged. And or show other flaws, I'll let you know what. And that's because they're from back breedings to the cuckoo. Which are a very old line of English bred Fitch and Fugate birds, half of which are clean legged. (Been keeping this cuckoo flock mostly as is because don't want to ruin the genetics.) These Columbian Males are 98% Marans. However, I would advise breeding them back to a Marans line to pick up the leg feathering. To work on making them more correct. All males being offered are good enough to use as "starts" to make Columbian Marans, with proper breeding and selection. But not perfect.
May (undecided, because of the line breeding techniques I follow) also offer up two males from later breedings, have 2 older roosters with feathered legs. However these males are only 87.5% Marans and from a back breeding to wheaten. I used these two males as breeders (not this year), but don't really need them anymore. Might be able to talk me out of them? LOL! Can/will get photos of them all if interested. All roosters are $40.00 each. Plus you will have to pay postage for their shipping. And provide a shipping box.
I'll send photos so you can decide if you want them or not. On whatever ones you're interested in, that may or may not already be sold. And will answer any questions you may have about them and their genetics. Unlike a lot of people I keep records. The roosters hatched this year are my 9th generation.

I hopefully can ship these this fall? PLEASE be aware of this.....There is a bird ban in some states (mine) because of the avail flu in the mid west. May not be able to ship until next year? (Hope not, because I don't want to feed birds over the winter I have no use for!) I'll double check with the postal service. Plan on shipping birds in Nov. if all is ok to do so. No money will change hands until I know if it's a go or not. Please contact me privately if interested. I'm ok with local pick ups if you are local (Greenville/Meadville area of PA, Crawford/Mercer counties). Can make arrangements.
Otherwise most these birds will go with the next batch of males to the butcher because I have no use for them other then soup.

Yeah, I did think of posting this to the for-sale forum. But thought it would get more attention posted here. If I went against BYC rules. I sincerely apologize. And won't do it again if advised.

Lynnrae

I hatched from eggs this year I got from you off eBay. I got 2 males of course. They are beautiful boys but do have clean legs. I do have

I still get a few that end up clean legged, or with just light stubble. I usually end up either culling them or if the typing is really good for the breed and the coloring. Use those males to back breed with and usually to the wheaten I have. Because all my wheaten are feather legged. Or pen them with feather legged Columbian girls. The reason why it's still occurring. Is because the cuckoo line I bred them too at one point was an old Fugate/Fitch line. That line of Cuckoo I have kept "as is" sine 2000 and being English bred. About half have clean legs. So the clean legged-ness isn't from back breeding to the Sussex line or anything like that. Which I have never done since the first out cross,
Breeding to the cuckoo also cleans up the Columbian patterning. As to why I did it, to help get rid of autosomal red. Genes they pick up from the wheaten. But can also clean that up with just selection between Columbian birds too, just takes longer.

Any pullets I had were long ago spoken for, so sorry I don't have any to offer you. I would suggest breeding to wheaten Marans and working the sex-linking from there. Or even a good line of Cuckoo. Also working the sex-linking.

Lynnrae

Lynnrae, Just read this thread. Do you think you might have Columbian eggs to offer this spring?

Thanks in advance...