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marek's symptoms and vaccination questions - Page 3

post #21 of 28

Phew, that took some reading!

 

The third one was a head masher. I have to say though, that not once in any of those did it talk about vaccination post conctraction, or even past Day 1.

 

The first link showed exposure testing on day 1, then the birds were culled and tested at about day 12, or when they showed signs. They talked more about the design of the vaccination coming from reverse engineering from the real thing.

 

The second one did not cover it either, but I did really like the eye picture. I will be checking eye's more often as an early indicator.

 

The thrid one is a cracker. I have spent a heap of time on the DuPont site looking over their disinfectant product Virkon S. For those looking to really clean, this stuff is the Marek's bomb!

 

I have to quote this, bold is what I consider  the important info;

 

Quote:

Vaccination is far from simple. Due to the persistence of the virus in the environment,
vaccination is a race against time to get the bird to produce a protective response before
it meets field infection.
These requirements and the nature of the virus mean that
protection can only be achieved by physically injecting chicks with live vaccine. This is
done either at one day old by intramuscular injection into the leg or neck, or increasingly
into the unhatched embryo by injecting hatching eggs at transfer.

The successful response to vaccination depends on choosing the correct vaccine strain,
correct preparation of this delicate vaccine and its accurate administration to each and
every chick. Even then, it is possible to overcome the protection offered by the vaccine
by exposing vaccinated birds to field virus too early or in such large amounts that the
vaccine response is overwhelmed.

 

I have a couple of link here of some info I found useful in support of early vaccination. Most recommend in ovo which is done by popping a hole in the air cell at day 18-19 before hatch. I watched a video on this, amazing to think they still hatch!

This link has some good bullet points on the disease and vaccination.http://www.daff.qld.gov.au/27_2741.htm  

This link is strongly against mature vaccination, and goes into detail as to why it does not work.

http://www.thecuckoopoultrystudofaustralia.com/mareks-disease.html

 

Quote:
A number of reputable Breeders have recently brought to my attention an alarming situation =
Some few people talk of vaccinating (using the vaccine mentioned in this article)  chicks that are from one month old up to adult age birds against this Disease and they only vaccinate once every month or 2 months everything that has hatched in that time as well as older birds they bring onto their property.

Understanding how a chicken acquires resistance to this disease with the help of the Mareks vaccine is important.

Hatchlings are 'born' with almost no immune system which takes the first 3 weeks to mature. Their immune system develops resistance immunity to a number of things in this first 3 weeks; some things need extra help over a period of several weeks (medicated feed against Coccidiosis as an example). 
Some vaccines are given at an older age with good reason; Mareks is not one of them.

Hatchlings are given the Mareks vaccine in the first 24 to 36hrs of life, preferably within the first 24hrs.
Any bird older than 36hrs that is given this injection rarely develops protection with the help of this vaccine as  the resistance is developed from day 1 to 3 weeks of age as the hatchlings immune system develops and matures. 

The injection needs to be given in this time frame so that the maturing immune system CAN develop the resistance necessary.
Hence the advice that hatchlings be kept seperate from all other birds and in a clean environment for the first three weeks.

Once a bird has been exposed to Mareks, and if it is susceptible, within a few weeks it starts to develop the tumours etc and the outward symptoms will start to show up 5 to 25 weeks later = no amount of vaccine given after the time frame mentioned is going to stop that bird displaying symptoms of the Disease, and it will not stop the bird dying from the disease, unless the bird is very strong = that bird is then a carrier.

The Mareks vaccine does not cure the disease; it affords a degree of resistance against it when given in the first 24 to 36hrs after hatching. At one month of age it is too late to vaccinate as any that are susceptible are already in the process of dying from the disease.

The  Mareks Vaccine  gives resistance to the Mareks Disease with an average 80 to 95% success rate against the hatchlings developing Mareks. 
This is approximately the same resistance rate as for any vaccine across all mammal and avian breeds/species.

The Mareks vaccine works to give resistance not immunity as such, the word vaccine is used to simplify a sentence. “I am giving my birds a Mareks vaccination” as opposed to  “I am giving my birds a Mareks resistance injection”

Humans understand the word vaccine hence its use.

This link is handy, it talks about how stress can be a big trigger for MD, a bird that has it may not show signs, but stress weakens teh immune system, then the disease takes hold.

http://birdhealth.com.au/flockbirds/poultry/diseases/mareks_disease.html

 

I am sorry guys, but I have not yet been converted to mature bird vaccination.

post #22 of 28
http://www.backyardchickens.com/t/135247/st-johns-wort .... worth a read ... worked for us.....
post #23 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by Haunted55 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bens-Hens View Post

Interesting.

 

Would really appreciate the info if you don't mind the time to dig it out. The learned people at the vaccine companies and hatcheries here were extremely specific (and all aligned) to the one hours and Day 1 administration practice. I did however have one vet say it could be done up to a week old, but the dose had to be doubled. There was too much conflicting information to support that so we stuck to the instructions from the producer.

 

It took much effort to find a supplier here that could provide doses for back yard chicken keepers. I eventually found an avian vet on the East coast of Oz that would provide a divided 1000 dose kit. 8x 125 doses. Crazy, considering we had to buy 1000 hits for 12 chicks lol We sold off 4 of the kits to local breeders, kept the last for ourselves. One producer of the vaccine would sell a 500 dose, but the cryo shipping just made it too expensive.

 

Wish we had it as straight forward to get done in the US. It was really upsetting to know there was a disease out there, yet it was so hard to prevent it if you didn't buy live stock from a hatchery.

I'm telling you...Seminolewind put it perfectly.  It's like fighting a ghost.  I had to buy a larger than needed dosing kit as well and the worst and most stupid thing about it was when I went to do it, I mixed it and injected the air into the bottle and was just going to draw my first dose and the cap on the bottle blew off and all the vaccine and diluent was in my eyes, mouth nose, yeah I got it good.  Live virus in the face, yep, I was a happy camper let me tell ya, lol.  We can't get turkey or chicken Marek's, I can attest to that first hand, but we can get an extremely painful eye infection from the diluent.  No clue why this happened, this wasn't my first time giving shots or getting them ready, just crappy luck.  I'm going to look for the stuff now and post as I find.

Oh, your poor thing.  And to think of the lost money, too. 

post #24 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bens-Hens View Post

No not waiting. We already vaccinated our chicks on day 1. Have not vaccinated four of them as we did not have the vaccine when they were a day old (had a couple of hatches)

 

Only just got back to reading the link Haunted posted. In my knowledge (without reading those links just yet) vaccinating after the first 24 hours is pointless and possibly harmful to the birds immune system. Saying that, I am always open to new information and am about to kick back and have a read.

 

A little later, I will see if I can dig out the info that persuaded me not to vaccinate for MD on a mature bird. Kinda pointless to spruke it without supporting information.

You're right Bens hens, those weren't the ones I was after but as I was going through thought I'd add them into the mix as they have some good info.  Now the one I am looking for is still eluding me.  Lol, I really can't find it in my Favs and am thinking I am going to have to search postings on BYC to find it.  I did come across some others though and will put them here.  Believe me, there is now way you will hurt the bird's immune system by vaccinating after day one.  I know, I know, put my links where my mouth is, lol.  I'm trying!

http://naturalk9.com/PDF/Prevention%20of%20Viral%20Diseases%20&%20Vaccines.pdf  Good explanation of vaccines and why they work.

 

http://www.oie.int/doc/ged/d9316.pdf  Again not the right one but an indepth discussion of just how Marek's works and the time frame it works under.  Not the black and white but a 1+1= a chance to stave off some of the damage.  I'll post more but this is not working well for me right now so will put it up and post again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Smiley55 View Post

http://www.backyardchickens.com/t/135247/st-johns-wort .... worth a read ... worked for us.....

Smiley55, I too tried the St. John's and it didn't do a thing here. Maybe it has something to do with the virulence of the strains your birds are facing, don't know.  I had better response from the Super B Complex.

A Haunter run a'fowl

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A Haunter run a'fowl

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post #25 of 28

The info posted is great.  I bought a tub of virkon last year and use it in a sprayer.  If a chicken dies, I clean out the coop and spray the heck out of it.  The tub will last a long time.

post #26 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smiley55 View Post

http://www.backyardchickens.com/t/135247/st-johns-wort .... worth a read ... worked for us.....

We tried that too and it did not seem to have any effect for us, but for a few bucks we were keen to try anything. 

Quote:
Originally Posted by seminolewind View Post

Oh, your poor thing.  And to think of the lost money, too. 

A hard lesson, but plenty of us have done it. I am glad that we have stuck with it and now have a healthy flock.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Haunted55 View Post

You're right Bens hens, those weren't the ones I was after but as I was going through thought I'd add them into the mix as they have some good info.  Now the one I am looking for is still eluding me.  Lol, I really can't find it in my Favs and am thinking I am going to have to search postings on BYC to find it.  I did come across some others though and will put them here.  Believe me, there is now way you will hurt the bird's immune system by vaccinating after day one.  I know, I know, put my links where my mouth is, lol.  I'm trying!

http://naturalk9.com/PDF/Prevention%20of%20Viral%20Diseases%20&%20Vaccines.pdf  Good explanation of vaccines and why they work.

 

http://www.oie.int/doc/ged/d9316.pdf  Again not the right one but an indepth discussion of just how Marek's works and the time frame it works under.  Not the black and white but a 1+1= a chance to stave off some of the damage.  I'll post more but this is not working well for me right now so will put it up and post again.

Smiley55, I too tried the St. John's and it didn't do a thing here. Maybe it has something to do with the virulence of the strains your birds are facing, don't know.  I had better response from the Super B Complex.

I am going to have to come back to that info tonight for a good read. Thank you for taking the time to dig out the links. I really enjoy learning about this stuff, knowledge is power.

 

As for the Vit B, I had not heard much about that for this case, but I was just reading the other 'hurt foot or something else' thread and the member there seems to have turned the corner with her case. Following your advice of the Vit B suppliment. Well done, one for the memory banks there!

Quote:
Originally Posted by seminolewind View Post

The info posted is great.  I bought a tub of virkon last year and use it in a sprayer.  If a chicken dies, I clean out the coop and spray the heck out of it.  The tub will last a long time.

We wanted a tub, but sheesh it was pricey here. I found my feed sore had little 50g sachets for $14.50. Makes 8l (2gal) I ended up using a couple over the course of our 'start over' but was worth it. Like you, we use it when ever in doubt.

post #27 of 28

Vaccination is given at one day of age because Marek’s Disease has a short incubation period of 2 weeks with signs of disease appearing in birds as young as 3 weeks of age – even though the disease is not spread through the egg and newborn chicks are protected by maternal antibodies for a few weeks.

http://birdhealth.com.au/flockbirds/poultry/diseases/mareks_disease.html

 

http://www.examiner.com/article/how-to-prevent-losses-from-mareks-disease-michigans-small-chicken-flocks

Still not the one, lol!

A Haunter run a'fowl

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A Haunter run a'fowl

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post #28 of 28
Thread Starter 

I so need to catch up on the postings! I still want to revisit this but want to come to the table at speed. everyone is wonderful!

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