BREEDING FOR PRODUCTION...EGGS AND OR MEAT.

Alright, then - should we be calling it "standard description" rather than an "SOP"?  That makes sense; I guess folks all know what we mean when we use "SOP" as in "breeding to the SOP" but actually, we should be saying that we are "breeding to the standard" - yes?



Again,it's largely a semantic issue.
All hobbies & interests have their own "language". IMO people wishing to partticipate in those interests should learn the language. On BYC a language seperate & apart from that used elsewhere in the poultry world is being developed. I see terms here I've never seen or heard in the exhibition poultry world I've long been a part of. Lockdown, egg song & of course SOP are examples. I've never heard anyone in the exhibition world refer to a SOP when talking about a breed [or any of the other myriad abbrevations used here for that matter].
In the exhibition poultry world breeding toward the standard description is a given so it's never spoken of. I suppose "bred to the standard" or "breeding to the standard" would work but they're unnecessary. Other than here I've never heard anyone refer to SOP Rhode Island Reds [or SOP other breed]. Same is true of Heritage Rhode Island Reds but that's another discussion.
When I'm judging a show & I or one of the otherjudges comes on a breed or variety we don't see often & we want to confirm a leg colour or other point we generally say somethinglike "what does the Standard say?".
Does any of this really matter? Not really. Except that som people here seem to want to cross over into the exhibition world to some degree & their use of BYC speak won't help them to be taken seriously by anyone.
 
Again,it's largely a semantic issue.
All hobbies & interests have their own "language". IMO people wishing to partticipate in those interests should learn the language. On BYC a language seperate & apart from that used elsewhere in the poultry world is being developed. I see terms here I've never seen or heard in the exhibition poultry world I've long been a part of. Lockdown, egg song & of course SOP are examples. I've never heard anyone in the exhibition world refer to a SOP when talking about a breed [or any of the other myriad abbrevations used here for that matter].
In the exhibition poultry world breeding toward the standard description is a given so it's never spoken of. I suppose "bred to the standard" or "breeding to the standard" would work but they're unnecessary. Other than here I've never heard anyone refer to SOP Rhode Island Reds [or SOP other breed]. Same is true of Heritage Rhode Island Reds but that's another discussion.
When I'm judging a show & I or one of the otherjudges comes on a breed or variety we don't see often & we want to confirm a leg colour or other point we generally say somethinglike "what does the Standard say?".
Does any of this really matter? Not really. Except that som people here seem to want to cross over into the exhibition world to some degree & their use of BYC speak won't help them to be taken seriously by anyone.
It matters to me; that's why I asked. Many thanks!

(I do think some of the abbreviations, acronyms, BYC speak, or whatever you want to call them are helpful on a forum like BYC; but you're probably right in that they ought not be used outside of here.)
 
Quote: lol, they are still in their eggs!! lol THe eggs were smaller than I expected and a lovely pale very pale tan egg, almost a cream. The smallest eggs I have seen. I put in a pm to the person that sold me the eggs to ask if these are pullet eggs or hen eggs.

I have this theory that a meat bird usually has to give in the egg department. ANd being a meat breed, perhapsthe SUlmtalers compensate by making a smaller egg.

I realize ther are those folks who want both, say what a BR or NH can provide in both meat and eggs but they are exceptional. I can live with fewer eggs as that also decrease the feed required. I am interested in finding out how many eggs a week and per year, and their season of laying.

I caved to a whim and maybe I should n't have. THe total opposite to acquiring the BUckeyes. lol

Quote: Thank you Bill, this was helpful to understand.Interesting how BYC has developed its own subculture in the chicken world so separate from the show world. Looks like we all could benefit from a mentor to teach us the correct lingo.
 
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Well, now I'm here too! At least there was only 40 pages to read.

I'm really interested in how management/feed affects my end growth. Dorkings are such a slow growing breed. I'm not sure that the readily available commercial feeds are what they do best on, but I'm no expert to go developing my own rations. And trying to supplement too much might just do more harm than good. Mostly I think they just need free range. Not sure I can give them all that they need without higher losses than I'm willing to take. So I'm looking at a balance. Figuring out where my cull points are going to be. This is one of those areas where hatching larger numbers of chicks allows you to figure things out a bit faster perhaps.

Anyway, this is all very interesting. I want my birds to be productive. This is my hobby, but I don't want a bunch of freeloaders! Its a breed that was known as a roaster, so I know I'm looking at a slower growing bird. But my job is going to be finding the sweet spot. I want to process a bunch of 'no way you will ever be a breeder' birds at 6 months. I'm then willing to hold onto some maybes for a bit longer to see how they develop, but the free loaders have to go!

Jennifer
 
I'm hearing on BYC that some breeds are slow growing and others are fast growing. Which dual purpose breeds grow fast?


Also, what are the different ways to keep records for egg production? When i start breeding chickens I would like to keep egg laying records but don't have the time for a trap door nesting system. Could I just go by the flock and try to find low producers? I would suppose a single bird per cage would work but I don't want to isolate my birds from each other and outdoor forage.
 
I'm hearing on BYC that some breeds are slow growing and others are fast growing.  Which dual purpose breeds grow fast?  


Also, what are the different ways to keep records for egg production?  When i start breeding chickens I would like to keep egg laying records but don't have the time for a trap door nesting system.  Could I just go by the flock and try to find low producers?  I would suppose a single bird per cage would work but I don't want to isolate my birds from each other and outdoor forage.  


Some of the later developed birds will be fastest developing. New Hampshire, Delaware come to mind.

As far as evaluating laying production without trap nesting, the methods used in FFA poultry judging and also described in "The Call of the Hen" are very accurate. Basically handling qualities, good spacing of pelvic bones, without carrying a lot of fat through the abdominal cavity are your better layers, this doesn't mean they're smaller, just that they put their nutrition into laying rather than carrying a large layer of fat. I listed both sources because as I learned as an adult, the judging manual apparently took it's methods from Hogan (author of Call of the Hen). Whichever source you can get your hands in easiest would be my suggestion, I do know that "The Call of the Hen" is available as a free ebook download that shows up in a google search
 
Well, now I'm here too! At least there was only 40 pages to read.

I'm really interested in how management/feed affects my end growth. Dorkings are such a slow growing breed. I'm not sure that the readily available commercial feeds are what they do best on, but I'm no expert to go developing my own rations. And trying to supplement too much might just do more harm than good. Mostly I think they just need free range. Not sure I can give them all that they need without higher losses than I'm willing to take. So I'm looking at a balance. Figuring out where my cull points are going to be. This is one of those areas where hatching larger numbers of chicks allows you to figure things out a bit faster perhaps.

Anyway, this is all very interesting. I want my birds to be productive. This is my hobby, but I don't want a bunch of freeloaders! Its a breed that was known as a roaster, so I know I'm looking at a slower growing bird. But my job is going to be finding the sweet spot. I want to process a bunch of 'no way you will ever be a breeder' birds at 6 months. I'm then willing to hold onto some maybes for a bit longer to see how they develop, but the free loaders have to go!

Jennifer
IMO you have hit on the value of the dorking. I've read a bit of JOsephs comments on his dorkings ont eh heritage and farming thread, and my impression is that these are good faragers. Finding the balance is the key. Saladin has a formulated feed to match the grass eating of his cornishX. Perhaps you will need to experiment to find what commericial feed will work for you instead of just feeding a custom mix.

I suspect there is only trial and error to find the answer. THough you might just PM Joseph and ask him what he does.

The speckled sussex are the ones that got me to thinking that feeding can get compicated untilwe find the regiment that will work for our specific set up.
 
Some of the later developed birds will be fastest developing. New Hampshire, Delaware come to mind.

As far as evaluating laying production without trap nesting, the methods used in FFA poultry judging and also described in "The Call of the Hen" are very accurate. Basically handling qualities, good spacing of pelvic bones, without carrying a lot of fat through the abdominal cavity are your better layers, this doesn't mean they're smaller, just that they put their nutrition into laying rather than carrying a large layer of fat. I listed both sources because as I learned as an adult, the judging manual apparently took it's methods from Hogan (author of Call of the Hen). Whichever source you can get your hands in easiest would be my suggestion, I do know that "The Call of the Hen" is available as a free ebook download that shows up in a google search
Just a thought and to throw some conversation into the mix, there are 2 other sources of info on the subject. One is a 9 page booklet by William White Broomhead, a legendary poultryman back in the early part of last century who later went on to become President of the British Poultry Club. He authored a great little booklet on , "The Light Sussex" ( a fine old dual purpose breed) in which he discusses the egg layer and is the only place I have read the mathematical dimensions for the perfect layer.
The booklet can be read online here: http://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=coo.31924003137332;view=1up;seq=5

The 2nd is a book by the British poultryman Oscar Smart. He died young and was never a well man, but he was a brilliant poultryman. The leading poultry biologist of his time in England. He was respected there the same way we respected Morley Jull here in the States. Mr. Smart was very keen on the inheritance of the laying ability in fowl. He developed a cataloging system called the "winter test" whereby one could analyze the laying performance of one's hens with a view to future mating for better egg laying results. It can be read in his 61 page book , "The Inheritance Of Fecundity in Fowl" , which is available online at:
http://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=coo.31924003164450;view=1up;seq=3
Read the Index first. It is very explanatory.
definition: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Fecundity
Best Regards,
Karen
 
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Just a thought and to throw some conversation into the mix, there are 2 other sources of info on the subject. One is a booklet by William White Broomhead, a legendary poultryman back in the early part of last century who later went on to become President of the British Poultry Club. He authored a great little booklet on the Light Sussex ( a fine old dual purpose breed) in which he discusses the egg layer and is the only place I have read the mathematical dimensions for the perfect layer.
The booklet can be read online here: http://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=coo.31924003137332;view=1up;seq=5

The 2nd is a book by the British poultryman Oscar Smart. He died young and was never a well man, but he was a brilliant poultryman. The leading poultry biologist of his time in England. He was respected there the same way we respected Morley Jull here in the States. Mr. Smart was very keen on the inheritance of the laying ability in fowl. He developed a cataloging system whereby one could analyze the laying performance of one's hens with a view to future mating for better egg laying results. It can be read in his book , "The Inheritance Of Fecundity in Fowl", which is available online at:
http://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=coo.31924003164450;view=1up;seq=3
definition: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Fecundity
Best Regards,
Karen

I've actually seen Broomhead's stuff before, the issue with both his (and Hogan's for that matter) is that mathematical dimensions for ideal laying are going to be different based on breed. The principles used to obtain their answers are sound, but especially the raw capacity numbers, a Sussex is going to have much different dimensions than a Hamburg for instance. When I'm picking my breeders I have to use different criteria for my Leghorns than I do for my Langshans. I do highly suggest both authors works, but the important lesson is not the hard numbers, but how they arrive at those, the process. Just a small but important footnote. We must take our breed into account when talking about any dimensions.
 

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