I HATE sand, now what do I do? (Help me with my run flooring)

"I like the idea of those PVC feeders. It just gave me the idea of attaching four of those to a 4x4 post with with pavers underneath. Pointing out in four directions would eliminate some crowding issues of larger (spoiled) fat hens standing side-by-side getting their grub on."

My 10 hens + all share a single 3" feeder.

I have never witnessed a squabble over food.
They just wait their turn and fill up.

Actually, I rarely see them eat from it.
They are too busy looking for something else...but the food does disappear...

CBabs said:

Thank you for the updates goldfishes! I am planning my coop and we have "cold" wet winters here (never into the single digits) with potentially soggy spring/fall months.
Sand kept being suggested, but I just have the feeling that it won't work for me!
I really appreciate your updates and experiences! Thanks

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CBabs -

You are quite welcome. Normally our winters are around the low 20s. We've been hit these past two years with the polar vortex, so who knows if this is the new normal. One thing that has been consistent is rain, rain and more rain. We go through rain for days at a time all seasons. When I started out, I kept getting the sand is "super star" response as well. For some, I say it will work wonders. You may even have success with it. My main problem is our city's sewers can't keep up with drainage and with the rains, our yard will sometimes get soggy. Even with a roof, rain gets in. Because of the clay soil and no where for it to drain to, the sand just didn't work. The sides would get wet and would start to reek for days. Because it wouldn't stop raining, it got so bad that I started hauling out wet nasty sand during a downpour. Not fun at all. Now I have a bunch of sand that won't decompose in the compost and I am hoping that by spreading it around, it will eventually go away...

However, on the dry days, sand was great for me in ease of cleaning. But it was dusty and the birds didn't seem to like it very well. They refused to eat sand covered food, and another bird wouldn't stop eating sand to the point she got sick. I found out later it was indeed sand as it came out in large quantities through digestion and as soon as I removed the sand, I saw almost immediate improvement. I honestly thought I was going to lose her.

But do keep in mind, these are only my experiences. Sand could be your best friend. I do know that once I started asking around, others in my area reported the same issues with sand. Smelly, impossible to dry out and rock hard in cold months were the consensus.

I'll be sure to update as we are entering into the rainy spring and I'm curious on how it will work in the summer and with flies. Flies were horrible last year even with sand.

goldfishes said:

Bobby B - I love your run and coop framing! Do you have a thread on the build? If so, will you link me to it? It's very nice.

Click to expand...

There's really nothing special about my run design. Think of it (on a smaller scale) of laying four wooden screen doors on their sides forming a square run attached to 4x4 posts at the corners. Duplicate that to get the top half all away around. The corner posts serve as links to attach additional run sections. Of course, you'd have to leave out some panels to create more open space and add some kind of entry. That's basically the foundation of what I did.

Extra boards at the top and bottom keeps the entire structure rigid and it does look like four separate sections, but that was not my intent. It just came out that way. The whole thing sorta branched out from the center like spokes of a wagon wheel. You could easily throw up some extra wood and screens if you wanted separate areas for some type of breeding program. --BB

Bobby Basham
Tucson, Arizona.

Onto the coop itself: Since it is on the smaller side for six birds (just under 3 square feet), I am maintaining the daily removal of waste and tossing it in the compost outside of the run. I don't want to take any chances of ammonia or moisture building up and it doesn't take more than a couple minutes to clean.


Three square feet seems awfully small for six birds. Is that what you actually meant? That's smaller than two milk crates side-by-side or cages that kept battery hens. --BB

Bobby Basham
Tucson, Arizona

Do you have snow in your area? If so, how do you plan to deal with snow load? Will it be covered? I wanted a square format like yours as I think it looks roomier and is pleasing to the eye, but my husband said it would be easier to handle snow with a rectangular design and a pitched roof. That and there is a huge walkway preventing my dreams of the square format....

As to the coop itself, no that isn't what I meant. Thankfully as that would be small! I should have said just under 3 square feet per bird. The coop is 4'x4' with two external nesting boxes. They only use the coop for three things: To lay eggs, to sleep and to run into if intimidated. This last thing rarely happens, but when there is a perceive or real predator in the area, they do seek shelter for a while.

I do know that the coop is on the small side for what they say here, but I followed the Purina building plans and was new to chickens. I actually thought it was big enough for 8 by their calculations and felt pretty good about it. However, the size isn't really a big deal as they don't spend much time in there outside of sleeping. We plan to extend the run instead since they love to be outdoors. Even in double digit negatives they were outside and ignoring the coop.


Edited to add: (Forget the first two questions, I just remembered you are in Arizona. I doubt you have to deal with snow!)

We have been enjoying some 70's and lower 80's for the past several weeks. --BB

Bobby Basham
Tucson, Arizona

goldfishes said:

CBabs -

You are quite welcome.    Normally our winters are around the low 20s.  We've been hit these past two years with the polar vortex, so who knows if this is the new normal.  One thing that has been consistent is rain, rain and more rain.  We go through rain for days at a time all seasons.  When I started out, I kept getting the sand is "super star" response as well.  For some, I say it will work wonders. You may even have success with it.  My main problem is our city's sewers can't keep up with drainage and with the rains, our yard will sometimes get soggy.  Even with a roof, rain gets in.  Because of the clay soil and no where for it to drain to, the sand just didn't work.  The sides would get wet and would start to reek for days.  Because it wouldn't stop raining, it got so bad that I started hauling out wet nasty sand during a downpour.  Not fun at all.  Now I have a bunch of sand that won't decompose in the compost and I am hoping that by spreading it around, it will eventually go away...  

However, on the dry days, sand was great for me in ease of cleaning.  But it was dusty and the birds didn't seem to like it very well.  They refused to eat sand covered food, and another bird wouldn't stop eating sand to the point she got sick.  I found out later it was indeed sand as it came out in large quantities through digestion and as soon as I removed the sand, I saw almost immediate improvement.  I honestly thought I was going to lose her.

But do keep in mind, these are only my experiences.  Sand could be your best friend.  I do know that once I started asking around, others in my area reported the same issues with sand.  Smelly, impossible to dry out and rock hard in cold months were the consensus.  

I'll be sure to update as we are entering into the rainy spring and I'm curious on how it will work in the summer and with flies.  Flies were horrible last year even with sand.

Click to expand...

I've been reading everything I can on the sand vs DLM debate. Our weather in SW Ohio is a lot like yours other than July, Aug. & Sept. are dry and winters are colder.

We are still building the run, should be complete soon if the rain stops :/ Our soil is clay, the 8' x 16' run will be covered, located on the east side of the coop. Right now there is grass but I realize with 6 chickens (they're around 7 weeks now) that will be gone within a week.

We orginally were set on sand but now I'm not so sure.The DLM is sounding more like the way to go for our needs. I'm worried about the wet sand freezing in the winter and staying wet 3 seasons of the year since drainage is just "OK". When it's dry I can shift the poop out but when wet and/or cold that may not work and the run will become smelly and draw flies.

Now I'm thinking wood shavings, straw, grass clippings & leaves in the fall. Should I add some DE or PDZ? We use wood shavings and PDZ (on the poop board) in the coop with great success.

Your thoughts?

ChickenMammX4 said:

I've been reading everything I can on the sand vs DLM debate. Our weather in SW Ohio is a lot like yours other than July, Aug. & Sept. are dry and winters are colder.

We are still building the run, should be complete soon if the rain stops

Our soil is clay, the 8' x 16' run will be covered, located on the east side of the coop. Right now there is grass but I realize with 6 chickens (they're around 7 weeks now) that will be gone within a week.

We orginally were set on sand but now I'm not so sure.The DLM is sounding more like the way to go for our needs. I'm worried about the wet sand freezing in the winter and staying wet 3 seasons of the year since drainage is just "OK". When it's dry I can shift the poop out but when wet and/or cold that may not work and the run will become smelly and draw flies.

Now I'm thinking wood shavings, straw, grass clippings & leaves in the fall. Should I add some DE or PDZ? We use wood shavings and PDZ (on the poop board) in the coop with great success.

Your thoughts?

Click to expand...

I would suggest that with clay, or any soil really, but especially clay, go with organic materials, a mix of shapes, sizes and materials, balancing dry(dead, brown) and wet(still green)....keep an eye out for any slimy (too wet) unbalanced mix. the chickens should keep things pretty well mixed up tho.

Start with not too deep layers of stuff and keep an eye on it until the grass is gone and you can see the patterns of water flow over the area as you may need to dig some trenches for water to flow out of the run. That was my experience even with quite sandy soil, but the slope of my land makes the chicken run the only place rainwater and snow melt runoff can go in the immediate area. Keeping that trench open and flowing (the chickens can fill it in) during wet weather and then adding dryer material has done wonders for the stink factor.

ChickenMama - Sorry I didn't see your message sooner! I am sporadic on the internet lately due to life. Since I am relatively new to the situation of switching to DLM, I can only give you my experiences. Hope they will help you decide. I am not sure which part of Ohio you are from, but I am originally from Southern Ohio. In fact, I live in a city that is directly below the southern tip of Ohio, so I will assume our weather and soil is similar enough.

My experience with the deep litter method in the winter was 100% successful. I am very pleased. With double digit negative temps and molting birds, they were out in the run actively digging around in the bedding and even foregoing the dust bin for the DLM to dust bathe. April was a frustrating month. It rained heavily nearly every day or for days on end. Even with flooding in the yard, the girls had a deep enough bedding to stay dry and continued to dust bathe in the shavings. Earlier this month, I removed some of the pine shavings and there is a rich, black dirt forming under the top layers. The rains made some of the areas moist, but that is where the composting was happening the quickest. I would have left all of it in in the run, but I needed browns for my compost pile and I wanted to utilize the partially broken down bits and pieces. It is already breaking down beautifully. I am adding pine shavings a bag at a time to build back up the run as I notice the need.

I did have one issue with the feeder. The girls have been knocking feed on the ground lately, and I had an ant infestation. They were carrying the feed into the coop. (Did you know you could get bit by little black ants? EEK!) Anyway, I cleared out the coop and tossed all the bedding into the run after generously sprinkling it with diatomaceous earth. Between that and poultry protector spray, the ants retreated. I do use DE in the nesting boxes, crevices of the coop and in the dust bin they rarely use. As far as the DLM, I only added it with the ant invasion.

So now that I made it through the winter, and much of spring, I will say that I am extremely happy I converted from sand to DLM. Time will tell as summer months near how I feel about the run. Who knows? I may hate it a few weeks. But for now, I'll list my pros and cons thus far.

Pros:
Very little maintenance in the run (no pooper scooper).
Provides entertainment (The birds don't peck each other like they were with the sand, instead they scratch around)
Keeps them dry in poorly drained clay and improves the soil as it breaks down
If the bottom layers get wet, it doesn't smell (if you have a balanced brown to green ratio) and no frozen, stinky sand to deal with in the winter months
Birds spent time outdoors being active
Warmer in the winter
Gives you great compost
NO SMELL! I have had the best compliment from visits from several people that have been around chickens. They are baffled that the coop smells fresh. The only time you smell poo is when they are going in front of you.

Cons:
It is messy. If you don't have high sides, it will get outside of the run. I am planning on combating this by replacing the outer gravel with concrete pavers that can be swept.
You will track in pine shavings no matter how much you try not to. They will stick to your shoes, clothes, hair.... Plan to break out the broom and vacuum more often.
If you don't have a free source of browns handy, you will have to spend some money upfront. It cost me about $25 in pine shavings to get started.