US Crele and White Sport Legbar Breeders - Alternative Legbar Group, for those not breeding to the P

ChicKat said:

MeepBeep said:

Day one whites still have the duckwing and barring characteristics while in fuz, they are just muted and harder to see...

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do you have any photos of 3rd or 2nd generation recessive whites that have patterns?  I've seen photos of patterns from split parents that were very faint - but not of anyting beyond that.  Would love to see 'em.  
 

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I can play that game as well, do you have any photos of 2nd or 3rd generation with no patterns? Playing the speculative and hearsay 'absence of evidence is not evidence of absence' game gets us nowhere...

I was able to sex all my whites at hatch, no I don't have any pictures as it was not important, I sexed and banded them at hatch and confirmed my ability to sex as the banded birds matured...

What makes you believe that the pattern we see would magically disappear in future generations? Any white bird is going to be a double recessive from the start, the offspring of double recessive parents is not going to be any less recessive than the parents and the auto sexing trait is not going to magically disappear, it's simply muted, that is unless there is more than one gene involved in the color suppression... If one breeds from white parents that were easy to sex at hatch I see no reason the offspring from those parents should magically lose the trait, maybe you can explain why you believe this will happen? Remember they are sill genetically 'pure' CL, nothing has changed beyond forcing a double recessive suppression gene into the mix, their genetic auto sexing genes/traits are still there just muted and harder to see due to that double recessive white trait...

As I said initially, there appears to be A LOT of hearsay and unfounded speculation in the breeding of whites...

I just want to be clear, I did not see the auto sexing on mine, That is a lot different than saying it was not there. I did say I could see a dot on a couple, but could not tell if it was in or out of the V. I could not see the V, That could be me as much as the chick or more.


I just want to add or emphasize from MeepBeep's post. They are still CLB's they are not leghorns or CX's. They are CLB with 2 recessive white genes. If you mate them to a "normal" CLB the chicks will all look like and be able to make the SOP's for CLB.

duluthralphie said:

I just want to be clear, I did not see the auto sexing on mine, That is a lot different than saying it was not there.

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True, and this brings back my point previous that if auto sexing is to be preserved in whites like any trait it's going to take selective breeding and culling... If you continue to breed from stock that were hard to nearly impossible to sex from the start of course the trait will continue to diminish in your line just like we are seeing in some of the existing 'regular colored' CL lines where autosexing is not as strong and obvious as it is in some other lines... I have three lines of CL I'm working with, the Rees line, a mix of earlier Greenfire lines, and a proclaimed unique Canadian line that I suspect is likely old Greenfire, but the guy I got them from swore up and down they had zero Greenfire lineage... The autosexing between those lines varies to a noticeable degree at least in my birds... The so called Canadian line produces the most distinct sexing, the chicks are picture perfect autosexable, can't say the same for the Rees that tosses some wishy washy looking chicks at hatch.. Of course this could simply be an individual trait, but IMO it shows that the autosexing can be diminished or strengthened depending on lineage, no reason to suspect the same won't hold true for whites...

Regardless the autosexing aspects of the breed are still there in the whites, but the white gene mutes the contrast and makes it harder to see and that degree of muting combined with how strong the autosexing was to start with could very well swing to an extreme where it's potentially lost 'visually' but that does not mean it is lost or will swing that way in all lines if a goal to maintain it is focused upon...

MeepBeep said:

I can play that game as well, do you have any photos of 2nd or 3rd generation with no patterns? Playing the speculative and hearsay 'absence of evidence is not evidence of absence' game gets us nowhere...

I was able to sex all my whites at hatch, no I don't have any pictures as it was not important, I sexed and banded them at hatch and confirmed my ability to sex as the banded birds matured...

What makes you believe that the pattern we see would magically disappear in future generations? Any white bird is going to be a double recessive from the start, the offspring of double recessive parents is not going to be any less recessive than the parents and the auto sexing trait is not going to magically disappear, it's simply muted, that is unless there is more than one gene involved in the color suppression... If one breeds from white parents that were easy to sex at hatch I see no reason the offspring from those parents should magically lose the trait, maybe you can explain why you believe this will happen? Remember they are sill genetically 'pure' CL, nothing has changed beyond forcing a double recessive suppression gene into the mix, their genetic auto sexing genes/traits are still there just muted and harder to see due to that double recessive white trait...

As I said initially, there appears to be A LOT of hearsay and unfounded speculation in the breeding of whites...

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Very well said and very true IMO .

MeepBeep said:

I can play that game as well, do you have any photos of 2nd or 3rd generation with no patterns? Playing the speculative and hearsay 'absence of evidence is not evidence of absence' game gets us nowhere...

I was able to sex all my whites at hatch, no I don't have any pictures as it was not important, I sexed and banded them at hatch and confirmed my ability to sex as the banded birds matured...

What makes you believe that the pattern we see would magically disappear in future generations? Any white bird is going to be a double recessive from the start, the offspring of double recessive parents is not going to be any less recessive than the parents and the auto sexing trait is not going to magically disappear, it's simply muted, that is unless there is more than one gene involved in the color suppression... If one breeds from white parents that were easy to sex at hatch I see no reason the offspring from those parents should magically lose the trait, maybe you can explain why you believe this will happen? Remember they are sill genetically 'pure' CL, nothing has changed beyond forcing a double recessive suppression gene into the mix, their genetic auto sexing genes/traits are still there just muted and harder to see due to that double recessive white trait...

As I said initially, there appears to be A LOT of hearsay and unfounded speculation in the breeding of whites...

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Oh MeepBeep,

Sorry if you feel offended, because that wasn't my objective at all. When re-reading, I can see how you would take offense, although none is intended.

You bring up some good points. Especially if the whites come from a line that has/had ambiguous autosexing then the difficulty of autosexing white chicks would increase.

Perhaps the idea that subsequent generations would be more difficult to sex comes from the way the lav gene works. It is also a recessive as you know, I'm sure -- and from time-to-time lav breeders - introduce non-lav back into their flocks to preserve the beauty of the patterns and the richness of the color. Perhaps it is apples and oranges.

Once again - my apology.

I hatched a pair of whites this summer. Might use them in a breeding group with some regular CCL females and see what we get. I lost my regular CCL rooster, he wasn't great anyway.

Ana Tidae said:

I hatched a pair of whites this summer. Might use them in a breeding group with some regular CCL females and see what we get. I lost my regular CCL rooster, he wasn't great anyway.

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What you get will depend on the genetics of the "regular" birds. White is recessive. If you breed a white bird to a "regular" Legbar with one white recessive 50% will look normal but have one white recessive gene. 50% will be white.(meaning have two white genes)



If you breed a white to a "regular" legbar with no white genes, none will be white. all will have one white recessive gene. It is pretty easy to figure on a Punnett Square. Good luck on whatever you do.

Did you get the white out of the line
that I just bought from you last weekend?

I just read the SOP for the crested cream legbar and with all of the color other than cream that they are proposing how will they differ from golden crele????