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Pyxis

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Brace yourselves, here comes more genetics stuff, lol. I feel like I didn't totally explain it before.

I guess that part of the issue is that we don't have a name for a Pharoah with one copy of Fee. We would just call that Falb Fee, too. But that bird won't breed true, whereas one that had two copies of Fee would breed true. Here's a Punnett square. F is Fee, f is lack of Fee. As you can see, two parents homozygous for Fee breed true.



But if they aren't homozygous for Fee...



Another example would be Grau Fee, which is technically Tibetan and homozygous Fee on wild base. But if the bird has only copy of extended brown (Rosetta) and only one copy of Fee, we'd probably still call that Grau Fee. Put two of those together though and you're definitely gonna hatch a ton of things that aren't Grau Fee.



Put two Grau Fee together that are Tibetan and homozygous for Fee, though, and all you're going to hatch, barring unexpected recessive genes, is Grau Fee.



So, in terms of referring to all of the above as one color even with the heterozygous genes, it would be like if we called one copy of extended brown and two copies of extended brown the same color, and then said it doesn't breed true. It DOES breed true if you have two copies. And we didn't call one and two copies the same. We called one copy Rosetta, which does not breed true because it's one copy. We called two copies Tibetan - which breeds true.

So the colors do breed true, as long as you make sure you have the proper genetics to make them breed true, if that makes sense.

So saying most colors don't breed true isn't correct. Most colors do indeed breed true, it's just that breeders aren't hammering down the genetics needed to make it happen, and are calling birds that have different genetics and thus, really, are a different color, the same color.
 
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Ravenlover

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So quick question about button quail o.o i been sifting his/her food but got a bullet blender and turned a cup of it into powder lol is it safe for them to eat the powder ? They are 9 days old and have started feather tubes sorry for the blurred pics savi moves fast and is in there temp ben while i clean there brooder they semi like egg so far mostly stick to food
 

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Matieus27

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Brace yourselves, here comes more genetics stuff, lol. I feel like I didn't totally explain it before.

I guess that part of the issue is that we don't have a name for a Pharoah with one copy of Fee. We would just call that Falb Fee, too. But that bird won't breed true, whereas one that had two copies of Fee would breed true. Here's a Punnett square. F is Fee, f is lack of Fee. As you can see, two parents homozygous for Fee breed true.



But if they aren't homozygous for Fee...



Another example would be Grau Fee, which is technically Tibetan and homozygous Fee on wild base. But if the bird has only copy of extended brown (Rosetta) and only one copy of Fee, we'd probably still call that Grau Fee. Put two of those together though and you're definitely gonna hatch a ton of things that aren't Grau Fee.



Put two Grau Fee together that are Tibetan and homozygous for Fee, though, and all you're going to hatch, barring unexpected recessive genes, is Grau Fee.



So, in terms of referring to all of the above as one color even with the heterozygous genes, it would be like if we called one copy of extended brown and two copies of extended brown the same color, and then said it doesn't breed true. It DOES breed true if you have two copies. And we didn't call one and two copies the same. We called one copy Rosetta, which does not breed true because it's one copy. We called two copies Tibetan - which breeds true.

So the colors do breed true, as long as you make sure you have the proper genetics to make them breed true, if that makes sense.

So saying most colors don't breed true isn't correct. Most colors do indeed breed true, it's just that breeders aren't hammering down the genetics needed to make it happen, and are calling birds that have different genetics and thus, really, are a different color, the same color.
That’s a lot of genetics but very interesting
 

Pyxis

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That’s a lot of genetics but very interesting
I enjoy genetics, lol. A lot of my quail breeding is going to be playing with color.

For instance, I just got some Pearl eggs. I plan to get Sparkly and do myself a little experiment. Also planning to use the Falb Fees to make Lavender Fee and see what that looks like. Probably also gonna use the Fees with the Tibetan males I have and make my own Grau Fees. Lavender Pearl might also be a fun project, we'll see. And if I do that, I could also do Lavender Italian with the resulting offspring, which would technically count as Snowie (Snowie being, apparently, fawn plus any diluter that isn't Fee).

Might try to get ahold of something with Roux genes so I can do Le Creme using that and my lavenders. That would mean I'd be after some Egyptians. Darn, I think I just talked myself into it. Le Creme is so pretty.
 

Ravenlover

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I enjoy genetics, lol. A lot of my quail breeding is going to be playing with color.

For instance, I just got some Pearl eggs. I plan to get Sparkly and do myself a little experiment. Also planning to use the Falb Fees to make Lavender Fee and see what that looks like. Probably also gonna use the Fees with the Tibetan males I have and make my own Grau Fees. Lavender Pearl might also be a fun project, we'll see. And if I do that, I could also do Lavender Italian with the resulting offspring, which would technically count as Snowie (Snowie being, apparently, fawn plus any diluter that isn't Fee).

Might try to get ahold of something with Roux genes so I can do Le Creme using that and my lavenders. That would mean I'd be after some Egyptians. Darn, I think I just talked myself into it. Le Creme is so pretty.
This has been extremely informative o.o i do plan to try to breed morphs later thank you
 

Fenrisulfr

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I enjoy genetics, lol. A lot of my quail breeding is going to be playing with color.

For instance, I just got some Pearl eggs. I plan to get Sparkly and do myself a little experiment. Also planning to use the Falb Fees to make Lavender Fee and see what that looks like. Probably also gonna use the Fees with the Tibetan males I have and make my own Grau Fees. Lavender Pearl might also be a fun project, we'll see. And if I do that, I could also do Lavender Italian with the resulting offspring, which would technically count as Snowie (Snowie being, apparently, fawn plus any diluter that isn't Fee).

Might try to get ahold of something with Roux genes so I can do Le Creme using that and my lavenders. That would mean I'd be after some Egyptians. Darn, I think I just talked myself into it. Le Creme is so pretty.
I am still figuring out, the different dilution factors.

I became unsure, when I crossed my Roux Dilute girls with a Pharaoh roo.
I was expexting Light Pharaohs, but I received 100% Falb Fees.

Any idea @Pyxis?
 

Pyxis

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I am still figuring out, the different dilution factors.

I became unsure, when I crossed my Roux Dilute girls with a Pharaoh roo.
I was expexting Light Pharaohs, but I received 100% Falb Fees.

Any idea @Pyxis?
Well that's weird, lol. Can I see pictures of the parents? And also the resulting offspring?

Roux is a recessive sex linked dilution gene. So that cross should have resulted in all just normal Pharoahs.

But I think we're in different countries, so I wonder if we're calling the colors different names. That happens in ducks, where each country might have a different name for the same color.
 
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Fenrisulfr

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Well that's weird, lol. Can I see pictures of the parents? And also the resulting offspring?

Roux is a recessive sex linked dilution gene. So that cross should have resulted in all just normal Pharoahs.

But I think we're in different countries, so I wonder if we're calling the colors different names. That happens in ducks, where each country might have a different name for the same color.
I guess, that Roux and Dilute are two different factors. And I guess, that the Dilution factor responsible for the Roux Dilute color is also responsible for the Fees.

But just a guess 🤔

20200331_163331.jpg

The parents


20200511_132348.jpg

The wild-pattern and Falb Fees are the Children ... the Italians, Tibetan/Rosettas and the Dotted White are from another group.

Edit: The wild-pattern Pharaohs are resulting from the one Pharaoh hen, also included in the breeding group (the favorite of the roo, he was just crowing without her 🙈 )
 
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Pyxis

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I guess, that Roux and Dilute are two different factors. And I guess, that the Dilution factor responsible for the Roux Dilute color is also responsible for the Fees.
Roux is a dilute gene. Fee dilute is its own gene, and the gene itself is called Fee. They aren't related, and they're separate, so Roux doesn't cause Fee, and Fee doesn't cause Roux.

Fee is incompletely dominant so, like in that picture I posted of my two males, if a bird has even one copy, you can tell. I suppose it's possible that the Roux parents are also Fee. I'd have thought they'd be less red, though.

Here's some further reading on both Fee and Roux:

https://www.backyardchickens.com/th...ian-coturnix-quail-discussion-thread.1331206/

https://www.backyardchickens.com/threads/japanese-coturnix-falb-fee-discussion-thread.1331646/

I'm also wondering if the ones you're calling Roux are maybe not the same as what I'd call Egyptian - to me, a wild type bird with just Roux is Egyptian, which is this (borrowing a picture from Myshire):



Yours look a lot lighter, like they also have something else going on. Maybe they do have Fee which is why they're lighter. Would make sense, since if they're Fee, then instead of getting all Pharoah offspring, I'd expect you'd get all Falb Fee...which is what you got.

If you don't mind me borrowing the picture of your birds, I'll ask some quail genetics people what color they think they are.
 

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