3 year old hen with a strange breathing problem, please help

[TropicalChickies]

Hello,
I've been keeping a small flock of chickens for a few years, so I'm familiar with most common problems, but now I'm stumped.

My three year old, Cleo, is mid way through her molt. She is a tough girl, top of the order, super smart and very affectionate. She lays beautiful big eggs too. I hope someone has an answer for this.

A few weeks ago I picked her up to check her for mites or fleas. I was holding her lightly under the belly like I usually do checking her tail and vent. Her skin was turning purple! I quickly put her down and she staggered a bit, then caught her breath, and was fine. I figured I had somehow put pressure on her air sacs and forgot about it.

But now there seems to be some sort of pressure inside her body -- when she roosts, she starts breathing hard with her beak open, making a strange squeaking sound. It doesn't sound anything like mycoplasma or bronchitis. It's not a rattling or wheezing -- it's a squeak. So she's sleeping in a box in the "hospital unit."

(She doesn't have gapeworm. I checked her throat and she's not stretching her neck or shaking her head.)

During the day she's ok. Goes around pecking, takes little rests. After all, she is three -- and going through a molt, so she's a little tired. But she eats very well, drinks water, and has normal poop.

Also when I pick her up, if I hold her for more than thirty seconds or so, she turns purplish.

Could this be air sacculitis?

(please don't tell me to take her to a vet. We live in a rural area in a South American rainforest. My neighbors can't believe I don't turn my chickies into soup after their first laying season. No vet would treat a chicken here)

A little background that might help. The weather has been very hot. I provide cool shady areas and fresh water, but it's hot. Also, in the tropics, we get sticktight flea infestations. Our property has so many wild birds, there's not much I can do except be ruthless with permethrin in the coop and areas the chicks hang out. Because Cleo has a featherless neck and now she's molting, the fleas were getting at her the worst. I slather all the girls with Vaseline to kill the fleas on their combs and wattles, but Cleo was getting swarmed, so I gave her a Permethrin dip -- now she's clear but could be a little anemic from the fleas. So I'm giving all the girls a vitamin and electrolyte in their water and Cleo gets a scrambled egg every other day to get her some extra protein.

So there's a lot going on: she's molting, getting over a flea infestation, plus I dewormed everyone two weeks ago (two other girls were showing signs of a heavy worm load, foamy yellow poop and lethargy.) Plus the heat. But the weird squeaking and problem breathing only when roosting? And turning purple when held?

Does anyone have a similar story? Or advice? I have doxycycline which is good for respiratory problems. Should I start her on it?

Thank you for reading all of this. Really appreciate any response!

 

[Wyorp Rock]

Welcome To BYC

If you feel Cleo's abdomen below the vent between her legs, does it feel bloated or full of fluid, tight like a drum?

Crop emptying overnight?

I'm not a vet nor expert, but your description, I would take a guess she's got some fluid accumulating in the abdomen. This can cause some of the symptoms you are seeing. Pressure on the abdomen from being held and pressure from roosting.
As for what's causing it...could be reproductive and/or organ failure.

If you feel fluid in the abdomen and she's in distress, then you can try draining it to give some relief, but it's not a cure, it's a supportive care measure. Some have success with giving a detox, you can check that out in this link. Both a video of draining and the instructions for detox are in the same link https://www.backyardchickens.com/threads/advanced-stages-of-bumblefoot.1328711/post-21682693

Again, it's just a guess on my part that this may be her problem. I've had hens that had reproductive problems with fluid and they would become distressed with being held and in the last stages when they roosted. The would end up not roosting and choosing to sleep on the floor to give themselves some relief, but their breathing did become gargled at times. With fluid, reproductive issues, cancer, etc. sometimes the crop doesn't always empty well either.

The Doxy may not hurt, but you are right, it's more effective for respiratory illness, so it may not help with her symptoms.

Since you do need to treat her and stay on top of the fleas, wow what a battle you have on your hands! I would not hold her for treatment. Opt to stand her on a table so you can work on her and let her keep her legs under her. I stand them on a table, pull them into my body, then drape one arm over them, this allows me to control them while treating them. When you pick her up, put a hand under her abdomen (cup the abdomen) with your hand for added support while you move her. This may help with the breathing as well.

Hopefully others like @coach723 will chime in with suggestions. Others may recognize something else I haven't.

I do wish you and Cleo all the best. If you have photos of her and the rest of your flock, they will be most welcome.

 

[TropicalChickies]

Welcome To BYC

If you feel Cleo's abdomen below the vent between her legs, does it feel bloated or full of fluid, tight like a drum?

Crop emptying overnight?

I'm not a vet nor expert, but your description, I would take a guess she's got some fluid accumulating in the abdomen. This can cause some of the symptoms you are seeing. Pressure on the abdomen from being held and pressure from roosting.
As for what's causing it...could be reproductive and/or organ failure.

If you feel fluid in the abdomen and she's in distress, then you can try draining it to give some relief, but it's not a cure, it's a supportive care measure. Some have success with giving a detox, you can check that out in this link. Both a video of draining and the instructions for detox are in the same link https://www.backyardchickens.com/threads/advanced-stages-of-bumblefoot.1328711/post-21682693

Again, it's just a guess on my part that this may be her problem. I've had hens that had reproductive problems with fluid and they would become distressed with being held and in the last stages when they roosted. The would end up not roosting and choosing to sleep on the floor to give themselves some relief, but their breathing did become gargled at times. With fluid, reproductive issues, cancer, etc. sometimes the crop doesn't always empty well either.

The Doxy may not hurt, but you are right, it's more effective for respiratory illness, so it may not help with her symptoms.

Since you do need to treat her and stay on top of the fleas, wow what a battle you have on your hands! I would not hold her for treatment. Opt to stand her on a table so you can work on her and let her keep her legs under her. I stand them on a table, pull them into my body, then drape one arm over them, this allows me to control them while treating them. When you pick her up, put a hand under her abdomen (cup the abdomen) with your hand for added support while you move her. This may help with the breathing as well.

Hopefully others like @coach723 will chime in with suggestions. Others may recognize something else I haven't.

I do wish you and Cleo all the best. If you have photos of her and the rest of your flock, they will be most welcome.

Hi, thank you so much for answering so thoughtfully. Cleo's abdomen is fine. But her crop is a mushy and heavy. She's a heavyset girl, stocky, so it's not very noticeable visually, but now that just massaged her, I can feel the mushiness. There's not a bad smell, but it's definitely larger and mushy feeling.

So maybe she has a fungus? Should I try olive oil first?

Thank you for your advice. I will post a picture tomorrow morning. It's nighttime here now.

 

[Wyorp Rock]

Check her crop first thing in the morning before she's had anything to eat/drink. If her crop is still mushy, then I'd begin treating her.

I prefer to give chilled pieces of coconut oil instead of liquid oil since the hen usually will eat it on her own and there's less chance of aspiration.
Even if there's no odor (yet) a crop can be turning sour. A yeast or fungal medication can help with that. Nystatin, Miconazole or Clotrimazole are commonly used here in the U.S. so likely you may be able to find one of these where you live.

A crop that is not emptying can cause some gurgling and, in some cases, respiratory distress if pressed on the right way.

Here's an article about treating the crop. These are the method(s) I use when treating my own hens.
https://www.backyardchickens.com/ar...w-to-know-which-one-youre-dealing-with.73607/

 

[TropicalChickies]

Hello!

Thanks again for the reply. Cleo's crop this morning is still not flat. It's a bit distended, especially to one side and mushy, but better than it was last night.

Two possible clues to this:

1. all of her poops during the day and at night are normal looking -- solid ashy brown with some yellow brown from cracked corn with some dark green with a white cap. They peck at grass and leaves all day so that's normal for here.

But first thing in the morning for the past several days, she poops a much more liquidy-mushy poop. No foam or worms or blood. After that, she poops normal the rest of the day. I'm watching her, believe me.

So it seems (I hope) that her crop is emptying but slowly and incompletely. She also eats like a fiend and is top of the order. I referee their meals and make sure the younger chicks get enough food, but yowza Cleo can eat. (Their usual feed is a balanced layer ration cut with some cracked corn mashed together. If I give them straight layer feed, they don't like it.)

2. Last night, I gave her crop her good massage and she expelled some gassy air from her beak. She has a faint "off" smell about her, actually. I thought it was the permethrin dip for the fleas. But now given these other clues, it seems more like her crop is going sour.

Maybe this is why...?
Two weeks ago I had to deworm like I mentioned. Two girls had obvious signs and they all looked a little pale and drained. I used Flubenvent -- I know it's strong stuff but that's what is available here. I hesitated with Cleo because I know molting isn't the best time to deworm, but went ahead because to leave one chick with worms, they'll all get them again. As you surely know!

I read that strong dewormers like Flubenvent can have an antibiotic-like effect on the chick's flora and encourage fungal growth.

I really love this Cleo. She's such a character. So I'm trying to be optimistic while finding a solution. Despite her "middle age" and the flea battle, she's very robust. Up until this molt, she was still laying three or four times per week and had a ton of energy. So I'm hoping the crop is the problem, because it's treatable.

For treatment, I didn't feed her this morning, just gave her water with ACV. I don't have coconut oil but I do have solid pure palm oil, the good stuff, not processed. I can get Nyastin here, I've seen it at the pharmacy.

Questions: should I restrict her diet? Stop her usual feed until this hopefully clears up? What should I feed her in the meantime? Soft eggs? Yogurt?

I really think she will pull through. She's not acting particularly sick. Right now she's pacing her hospital room, pissed off that everyone else is eating.

I've attached a pic of her. I'll take one of her crop area as soon the sun comes out.

Thank you, sorry for the long posts. Hopefully, there's stuff in here others can learn from too.

 

[Wyorp Rock]

Last night, I gave her crop her good massage and she expelled some gassy air from her beak. She has a faint "off" smell about her, actually. I thought it was the permethrin dip for the fleas. But now given these other clues, it seems more like her crop is going sour.

Isn't she sweet!

If the crop was a bit gassy, then yes, I'd treat as sour.
Palm oil sounds great. I'd be begin Nystatin or yeast cream to treat the crop too.

For me, I rarely separate a bird for treatment, I leave them with their flock and I don't restrict food. Others do, so you'll have to decide what's going to work for you.

 

[TropicalChickies]

Hello, thank you for everything. The pic I shared earlier was from six weeks ago -- she hadn't started losing feathers yet and her comb was straight up.

These two pics are from early this morning. Feathers falling out and regrowing, (coated with liquid soap and vegetable oil to keep the fleas off) and her crop looked and felt like a half filled water balloon. And you can't see here, but her comb is a little deflated. Not horribly so, considering everything she's going through, but a bit flopped and less red than usual.

When I massage her crop like you describe in the article about your 12 year old hen, she expels a little gas but she really seems to like it.

I only fed her once, just before midday, some boiled egg with plain yogurt. Kept water with ACV near her all day.

I went out and got the Nyastin and started it tonight.

I'm mainly keeping her away from the flock because she is the oldest and molting with a lot of soft skin exposed and the fleas are targeting her. So she's in a safer place, with a platform high off the ground where she can sleep. But I take her out to mix with the others for short periods.

I appreciate your advice and thoughtful article. I'll update on how she's doing in a few days with hopefully good news.

 

[TropicalChickies]

Oh, and I gave her a teaspoon of palm oil this morning too. About an hour later, she had an oily poo -- guessing that's ok?

 

[Wyorp Rock]

Yes, the oil will cause some loose and oily poop.

 

[TropicalChickies]

Hi there. After a few days of oil, massages, and yeast treatment Cleo has improved, but is not completely better. Good news: she is out of respiratory distress, which is great. I can hold her and she can perch without making the squeaking/hiccuping sound. Her color is pinky red with no purplish cast.

The first day after I gave her palm oil and massages, she pooped a lot of rather bright green mushy poo. I freaked out initially that it was Newcastle or something, but then I found several threads here that other sour crop chickens do the same. Her poop is more normal now.

She's been on the yeast medication for four days now though and her crop is still mushy in the morning. I took the picture below first thing this morning. I've been restricting her diet mostly to boiled egg and water. Yesterday I tried some mashed feed (no corn) and afterwards I had to "burp" her by massaging her crop. Her head smells like warm sourdough bread. There's no liquid coming up in her throat or out of her beak, but she's gassy and I can hear a fermenting bubbling sound in there. Her crop feels tender and inflamed, but she likes to get massaged.

Overall, her energy is pretty good. Her new feathers are coming in well She took the dustiest dust bath I've ever seen a chicken take yesterday, she's preening herself, and hungry. She even eats the medication, no problem.

Is four days too soon to hope for recovery? Should I try an antifungal after the course of Nyastin if the crop stays mushy?

Thank you for your help