A mix of vaccinated and unvaccinated chicks - help me realize my risks/options

[irlybird]

We have 14 vaccinated chicks coming on Saturday. Due to demand we were unable to get the Ameracaunas and Copper Marans we were after. I did find a local farm that has 2 week old ones available (ones coming from the farm would be unvaccinated).

What are my risks and options with a mix of 14 vaccinated and 4 unvaccinated? Can I feed them all medicated food and lower my risks... I don't have the resources to keep them separate for a couple months.

This is only our second batch of chicks so I'm still building on my knowledge. I appreciate all your help and knowledge.

 

[Brooks_]

I think I've read that some will keep both. The thought being that the unvaccinated would alert you to the problem.

 

[Ridgerunner]

What are my risks and options with a mix of 14 vaccinated and 4 unvaccinated? Can I feed them all medicated food and lower my risks..

What were they vaccinated for? Marek's, Coccidiosis, or something else? The answer will be different depending on what the vaccine was.

Since you mentioned "medicated feed" I'll assume it is Coccidiosis. If I'm wrong, please let me know. There is no medicated feed for Marek's and if the medicine in that medicated feed is Amprolium, it's only good for Coccidiosis. I'll copy something I wrote about medicated feed and Coccidiosis a few years back. It's long but if you study it maybe it will help you make an informed decision.

First you need to know what the "medicated" is in the medicated feed. It should be on the label. Usually it is Amprolium, Amprol, some such product, but until you read the label, you really don't know. Most "medicated' feed from major brands for chicks that will be layers uses Amprolium, but there are a few out there mostly for broilers that use other medicines. I'll assume yours is an Amprolium product, but if it is not, then realize everything I say about it may not apply. And it is possible that the "medicated" is Amprolium AND something else.

Amprol is not an antibiotic. It does not kill anything. It inhibits the protozoa that cause coccidiosis (often called Cocci on this forum) from multiplying in the chicken's system. It does not prevent the protozoa from multiplying; it just slows that multiplication down. There are several different strains of protozoa that can cause Cocci, some more severe than others. Chickens can develop immunity to a specific strain of the protozoa, but that does not give them immunity to all protozoa that cause Cocci. Little bitty tiny baby chicks can develop that immunity easier than older chickens.

It is not a big deal for the chicken’s intestines to contain some of the protozoa that cause Cocci. The problem comes in when the number of those protozoa gets huge. The protozoa can multiply in the chicken’s intestines but also in wet manure. Different protozoa strains have different strengths, but for almost all cases, if you keep the brooder dry, you will not have a problem.

To develop immunity to a specific strain, that protozoa needs to be in the chicks intestines for two or three weeks. The normal sequence is that a chick has the protozoa. It poops and some of the cysts that develop the protozoa come out in the poop. If the poop is slightly damp, those cysts develop and will then develop in the chick's intestines when the chicks eat that poop. This cycle needs go on for a few weeks so all chicks are exposed and they are exposed long enough to develop immunity. A couple of important points here. You do need to watch them to see if they are getting sick. And the key is to keep the brooder dry yet allow some of the poop to stay damp. Not soaking wet, just barely damp. Wet poop can lead to serious problems.

What sometimes happens is that people keep chicks in a brooder and feed them medicated feed while they are in the brooder. Those chicks are never exposed to the Cocci protozoa that lives in the dirt in their run, so they never develop the immunity to it. Then, they are switched to non-medicated feed and put on the ground where they are for the first time exposed to the protozoa. They do not have immunity, they do not have the protection of the medicated feed, so they get sick. Feeding medicated feed while in the brooder was a complete waste.

I do not feed medicated feed. I keep the brooder dry to not allow the protozoa to breed uncontrollably. The third day that they are in the brooder, I take a scoop of dirt from the run and feed it to them so I can introduce the protozoa and they can develop the immunity they need to the strain they need to develop an immunity to. To provide a place for that slightly damp poop, I keep a square of plywood in the dry brooder and let the poop build up on that. I don't lose chicks to Cocci when they hit the ground.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with feeding medicated feed to chicks, whether the protozoa are present or not. It will not hurt them. They can still develop the immunity they need. But unless the protozoa are present, it also does no good.

If you get your chicks vaccinated for Cocci, do not feed medicated feed. It can negate the vaccinations.

 

[wordgirl]

If you get your chicks vaccinated for Cocci, do not feed medicated feed. It can negate the vaccinations.

Your above post is sooo helpful, @Ridgerunner; thank you!! I had a question about the last point—are you able to explain how the medicated feed and vaccinations can cancel each other out? I’ve heard this before but don’t understand the mechanics.

 

[irlybird]

In the meantime of writing this out I did call Purina and the nutritionist on site said it is totally fine to feed vaccinated chicks medicated feed.

My guess is, it's just a waste of getting them vaccinated if we then give them the medicated feed?

I'm interested to hear further too.

And to answer your question, 14 of them were vaccinated for Mareks and Cocc.

@Ridgerunner I'm also interested to hear then if you think....
a. it's not worth it integrating chicks who've been vaccinated with those who are
or
b. You'd have them together on unmedicated feed and ensure clean brooder conditions and before having free run ensure they have some access to dirt from their coop/run?

I'm finding this very informative discussion!

 

[Kiki]

It is very important to mention which vaccine you are talking about because there are many different types of vaccines out there.

 

[cmom]

Most hatcheries vaccinate for Marek's, which medicated feed has no effect as mentioned above. I have fed my chicks medicated feed and it does help them gain a resistance to cocci. I start my chicks on it in a brooder but with a few days they are in a coop. I let them get used to the coop for a few days before I let them out so they will get used to the coop and look at it as being a safe place before I let them out into their pen. I don't change feed and they are still on the medicated feed. It will not hurt them. Good luck and have fun...

 

[irlybird]

It is very important to mention which vaccine you are talking about because there are many different types of vaccines out there.

Cocci and Mareks from hatchery.

 

[Kiki]

Cocci and Mareks from hatchery.

Coccidiosis.

Thanks.

 

[Ridgerunner]

are you able to explain how the medicated feed and vaccinations can cancel each other out?
I’ve heard this before but don’t understand the mechanics.

I'm not sure. I think the vaccine is weakened Cocci bugs. The chicks need a couple of weeks exposure to develop immunity. The Amprolium doesn't let those weakened bugs reproduce enough for constant exposure so the chicks are not exposed to them long enough to develop immunity. But that's just a guess.

a. it's not worth it integrating chicks who've been vaccinated with those who are

I would have no problems integrating chicks if some were vaccinated for Mareks's and some were not. The Marek's vaccine does not stop them from getting Marek's and spreading it. It stops the tumors from developing that cause the problems. When Marek's hits your flock it is pretty common that half or more never show symptoms anyway. Even if some are not vaccinated not all show symptoms, it's a tricky virus.

Also, the Marek's vaccine is actually Turkey Marek's. Your other chicks cannot catch Marek's because some were vaccinated. They may catch Marek's anyway and spread it but they did not get that from the vaccine.

b. You'd have them together on unmedicated feed and ensure clean brooder conditions and before having free run ensure they have some access to dirt from their coop/run?

This is what I'd do where some chicks were vaccinated for Cocci and some were not. If the brooder is dry and the water is clean it's unlikely that Cocci will be a problem, but sometimes it can anyway, you have to watch for signs. There are several different strains of the bug that causes Cocci. Immunity to one does not give immunity to the others. Last I heard the Cocci vaccine does not cover all the possible strains, just the most common.