All 8 stopped laying after "jelly" egg + diarrhea?

[allig8r]

1) What type of bird , age and weight.

8 hens--all 2y2m old, 3 Black Australorps, 2 Buff Orps, 1 BR and 2 RIRs... no clue on weight

2) What is the behavior, exactly.

They all seem to be acting fine, but have stopped laying after one of them laid a "jelly" egg (literally--like a leather pouch of an egg) last Tuesday and have strange droppings that range from what looks like diarrhea to combined regular droppings with a portion that's more diarrhea-y. We're by no means in a heat wave (Central NJ) and they have clean water, plenty of food and calcium--appear to be eating all of it as usual.

It's noticeable that they're not cackling and "yelling" as much each day. We always suspected it was yelling associated with laying (either the process or arguing about who gets which nest) and that's noticeably diminished. But to look at them you wouldn't otherwise suspect a problem.

3) Is there any bleeding, injury, broken bones or other sign of trauma.

None apparent.

4) What happened, if anything that you know of, that may have caused the situation.

Absolutely no clue. It's possible they had a batch of water without DE in it and they did look like they weren't drinking it for a day or two about a week ago.

5) What has the bird been eating and drinking, if at all.

Unmedicated layer pellets from local Agway as usual (and isn't a new bag) plus water with DE in it. Looked like they stopped drinking for a day or two a week ago and I thought maybe the bucket wasn't clean enough (dh "cleaned" it

)

6) How does the poop look? Normal? Bloody? Runny? etc.

Yesterday looked REALLY runny and I'm not sure if it's bloody, but it's definitely a reddish brown instead of that usual greenish-black more solid stuff with the chalk-white blotch in it. Today there's a kinda half-and-half of that runny stuff with the more solid portion returning (and it's a yellow-brown color). Some of today's poops look like they're runny reddish-brown--but not so red that I'm sure it's blood.

7) What has been the treatment you have administered so far?

Nothing. Just a THOROUGH cleaning of the water bucket and new water with DE and let them free-range a bit. They behaved pretty normal.

8 ) What is your intent as far as treatment? For example, do you want to treat completely yourself, or do you need help in stabilizing the bird til you can get to a vet?

Would seriously PREFER to treat ourselves if possible; but only for lack of a good vet nearby (I'm an urban chicken owner--so they're hard to come by)

9) If you have a picture of the wound or condition, please post it. It may help.

Will post a poop picture tomorrow as it's dusk and I can't get the color right on the film right now.

10) Describe the housing/bedding in use

They have a henspa (portable coop with upper level that has chicken-wire floor so droppings fall through). Nothing on the ground but dirt and at this point, coop has been in the same place about 2-3 months so the dirt is pretty well compacted. We were just about to move it, but have left the coop in one place for easily 6mo at a time.


Just to add...

I do find them occasionally sitting in the nest boxes as if they were going to lay.

We DID consider a "thief" despite no remaining shells, etc. and have secured it to the hilt (there was a spot that maybe a small rat could've gotten in). Thought about a raccoon opening the egg hatch, but they're rarely around and definitely not during the day. I've been checking for eggs multiple times/day. Nothing.

The girls don't free-range too often as it's illegal. But they HAVE been out a day or two in the last week. I thought some free-range goodies might encourage them and perk them up.

They ate some carrots a few days before this. They loved them. Possibly the problem?

I dust the coop with DE about every 3 months. In May, we full-out washed the coop (with water and a scrub-brush--no soap) on a super hot day so it could dry thoroughly. I did use dish soap to clean the clear roof panels--but thoroughly rinsed and plenty of eggs since up till the last week.

At this point, I'm definitely concerned that NONE of them are laying.

 

[Judy]

Have you seen the "poo chart?" It might be helpful for you to sort out what is normal and what is not in what you are seeing:

http://www.chat.allotment.org.uk/index.php?topic=17568.0

Do you have them on a worming program, or have you ever wormed them?

On the weight question, can you feel any difference from how they usually feel? Are they lighter, or does the keel bone feel sharper or more prominent than in the past?

Besides worms, there could be some problem with the feed, they could have eaten something spoiled or poisonous, they could have picked up some intestinal infection, they could even have cocci, despite the age, and no doubt other possibilities.

I'd start with a nutritional boost, and some repair work on the intestines, by offering a probiotic (about 1/4 cup or less of plain live culture yogurt, perhaps mixed with a few hard boiled mashed eggs or egg yolk and a bit of applesauce.) A tsp of organic apple cider vinegar in a gallon of drinking water is also good. You could also offer a probiotic from the feed store instead of the yogurt, along with a vitamin supplement. Another source of vitamins is infant liquid ones from the drug store, without iron. Whatever is going on, these things will help them build up their ability to combat it.

If DE in the water has been your worming program, I'd consider worming them. There is some evidence that DE in feed helps control worms, at least between routine worming, though it is not going to be effective if there is an infestation. Not sure about putting it in water.

Just in case, here are a couple of good threads on worming:

https://www.backyardchickens.com/forum/viewtopic.php?pid=2525157#p2525157

https://www.backyardchickens.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=216407

Let us know what you think and how things go. There are others on this forum better able to help than I; I just do a lot of reading here, am not that experienced.

 

[keljonma]

If the birds aren't used to foraging, whatever they have eaten would have an effect on their droppings. Also anytime you feed the birds something different, it can effect the color and consistancy of their droppings. Our flock is doing Blue Colored Poo these days because of blueberries.

Also, birds aren't that fussy about the water they drink. Ours drink out of rain puddles all the time instead of the lovely clean bowls of water and clean waterers we provide.

Do your birds have fresh air and plenty of shade as well as water and feed? As for their feed, you said it is not a new bag, but how old is it? And is it in a container that helps keep it fresh? An open bag not in an tightly sealed container will lose its good properties (vitamin/minerals, etc) rather quickly.

I agree the raw apple cider vinegar in the water and the yogurt are good ideas for general good health of the flock. I have never heard of putting DE in the water, either. We mix ours with the feed and in the dust bathing pool. Carrots (as well as the DE and acv) are considered by some to be natural wormers. Carrots are a good treat, imo. Worming is a very personal decision. We do not use chemical wormers.

One other thought.... are you sure your birds aren't molting? Our Ladies are 2 and 3 years of age, and some are going through molt now. I suppose since your birds are already 2 years of age, you know that they won't lay while they are molting. Additional protein is helpful at this time (like yogurt, buttermilk, fish oil). I also like to feed black oil sunflower seeds, which provides methionine, which is necessary for good feathering. It is recommended that this should be no more than 1/3 their diet, as sunflower seeds are high in fat.

That's all I can think of for the moment. Keep us informed on how your flock is doing. Good luck! I know it is worrisome when they aren't behaving "normally".

edited for typo

 

[Judy]

Ugh, I hadn't thought of molting, and should have. And I do agree that worming is a personal decision, one of those things you need to research and make the choice that best suits you.

 

[allig8r]

Have you seen the "poo chart?" It might be helpful for you to sort out what is normal and what is not in what you are seeing:

Poo appears ceacal from the chart (nothing in the abnormal shots). Possible that it's only every 8-10 droppings but have never seen this before now.

Do you have them on a worming program, or have you ever wormed them?

Nope... never have.

On the weight question, can you feel any difference from how they usually feel? Are they lighter, or does the keel bone feel sharper or more prominent than in the past?

To be honest, I almost never have occasion to pick them up and hold them. In true newbie form, I learned too late how to make them comfortable with handling--so it's rare (although they will come to me and hang out nearby for lovin'

)

Another source of vitamins is infant liquid ones from the drug store, without iron.

How much would I give them? (will also be trying the yogurt, etc. recommended).

If DE in the water has been your worming program, I'd consider worming them.

Totally has. Will look at the worming links and follow through with that. Worst case, it can't hurt.

THANKS!

 

[allig8r]

If the birds aren't used to foraging, whatever they have eaten would have an effect on their droppings. Also anytime you feed the birds something different, it can effect the color and consistancy of their droppings. Our flock is doing Blue Colored Poo these days because of blueberries.

They get to forage maybe twice/month minimum (sssshhhh). Even if it's just before dusk for a bit (because they're out for a short period of time and coop themselves at dusk). But the carrots were new.


Also, birds aren't that fussy about the water they drink. Ours drink out of rain puddles all the time instead of the lovely clean bowls of water and clean waterers we provide.

That's my girls: they leave the coop and run for the puddles.

Do your birds have fresh air and plenty of shade as well as water and feed?

The only thing questionable MIGHT be the amount of shade, but I think they have all of it pretty well covered.

As for their feed, you said it is not a new bag, but how old is it? And is it in a container that helps keep it fresh? An open bag not in an tightly sealed container will lose its good properties (vitamin/minerals, etc) rather quickly.

Well, it was relatively new to us but who knows how long Agway was sitting on it--ya know? It's been stored and given the same way for 2 years so I venture to say that good, bad or indifferent--we'd have seen this already if it were a problem... no? We don't store the food outside--it's in our house in a sealed bag that generally we don't buy too far in advance. We just don't have the room for it. The coop feeder takes a 50# bag at a time.

I have never heard of putting DE in the water, either.

LMAO! I learned it here and it was even noted that people put it in the dogs water--so we started that at the same time!

We do not use chemical wormers.

Yeah--I'd be hunting up non-chemicals.

One other thought.... are you sure your birds aren't molting? Our Ladies are 2 and 3 years of age, and some are going through molt now. I suppose since your birds are already 2 years of age, you know that they won't lay while they are molting. Additional protein is helpful at this time (like yogurt, buttermilk, fish oil). I also like to feed black oil sunflower seeds, which provides methionine, which is necessary for good feathering. It is recommended that this should be no more than 1/3 their diet, as sunflower seeds are high in fat.

I'll be honest: they look like they MIGHT be in the beginning stages of molt but they've looked like this for over a month--and not all of them. I've only seen one or two of them go through a real molt so far (last year)... possibly three. But none of them look that icky obviously molty/sick looking way they do when they're losing their feathers.


Okay... so I have my marching orders. I've been gone most of the day and am going out to check on them.

 

[Judy]

Quote:
Usually recommended is a drop or two along the side of the beak for each bird. That would be a major undertaking for me so I cheat, I mix up a special treat (a few hard boiled eggs mashed with yogurt works great here) and add vitamins to that. Easier to figure out a way that they each get a fair share of the treat for me.

You can get vitamin packets in feed stores that you can put in the water, too, or so I have read; haven't found this yet.

 

[keljonma]

I was going to add that eggs are a good source of protein too, if the ladies are molting. But, since you said they aren't laying, I didn't add it. However, after they are back on track, eggs would make good protein source. I scramble it up with some turmeric and garlic and throw in some oregano for our flock - but they are spoiled, in case ya couldn't tell.

 

[allig8r]

Okay... no ceacal poop visible today... all the normal type. And... ONE EGG. This is the first in a week.

Not sure what to make of it, but am going to probiotic up (yogurt style) and cider vinegar them down. And I'll let them have some of our carrots since I know they're good.

I guess we'll see if the egg production picks up. It's actually been hot the last 2-3 days so I would've expected a slowdown.

Will keep you all posted. THANK YOU.

Will also look for additional comments.