are pain relievers ending in -caine toxic to chickens/birds? looking for solid proof either way.

Discussion in 'Emergencies / Diseases / Injuries and Cures' started by loveourbirds, Nov 20, 2013.

  1. loveourbirds

    loveourbirds Chillin' With My Peeps

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    i was once recommended a product by a vet containing lidocaine for a pheasant. when i recommended it on here, just after joining; i was told it was toxic to birds.

    i can say the pheasant did die, but i am uncertain if it was the lidocaine or the injury. the symptoms were similar to what people claim on chickens, but i also was applying it directly to his skull. when i was corrected on that post, i just assumed they were right. i done some quick research and found several people who claimed the same thing.

    when giving advice i have always tried to mention not to use those products. recently casportpony mentioned that all animal grade penicillin has procaine in it. a blood stop powders contains benzocaine. we have used penicillin several times with no known side effects, other than potential resistance. i researched a little farther and did find that it seems its only topical products that cause the problems, but i couldnt find any real solid experiments/vetrinary papers on the topic. i have seen reports both ways from people who's information i trust.

    so im asking, is products containing -caine truly toxic - or was it something else in the products we may have used? is it only certain "-caines", or is it all of them?

    i invite any and all input on the subject, but solid documents would be nice.
     
  2. seminolewind

    seminolewind Flock Mistress Premium Member

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    It's the "caine" pain killer that's bad for chickens. The one in penicillin does not harm them. I've given penicillin with procaine many times over the last 5 years with no bad effects at all. With any kind of lotion or powder, I think I would pass on them.

    You may want to search for member "SpeckledHen" and "caine", she's written things about it.
     
  3. Eggcessive

    Eggcessive True BYC Addict Premium Member

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    Procaine is added to penicillin G to reduce the pain in giving the drug into the muscle. I think medications such as procaine and lidocaine (used to limit bleeding during surgery) are just used with caution in very small amounts in chickens. Here is an except from Wikipedia about it's affects on humans and animals:
    Adverse effects[edit]

    Application of procaine leads to the depression of neuronal activity. The depression causes the nervous system to become hypersensitive producing restlessness and shaking, leading to minor to severe convulsions. Studies on animals have shown the use of procaine led to the increase of dopamineand serotonin levels in the brain.[7] Other issues may occur because of varying individual tolerance to procaine dosage. Nervousness and dizziness can arise from the excitation of the central nervous system, which may lead to respiratory failure if overdosed. Procaine may also induce weakening of the myocardium leading to cardiac arrest.[8]
    Procaine can also cause allergic reactions causing the individuals to have problems with breathing, rashes, and swelling. Allergic reactions to procaine are usually not in response to procaine itself, but to its metabolite PABA. About one in 3000 people have an atypical form of pseudocholinesterase,[citation needed] which does not hydrolyze ester anesthetics such as procaine, resulting in a prolonged period of high levels of the anesthetic in the blood and increased toxicity
     
  4. loveourbirds

    loveourbirds Chillin' With My Peeps

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    speckledhen is one of the people i was referring to earlier. i trust her information, just trying to find the borders on what is toxic and what isnt. that could open a whole new line of possible treatments for us all.
     
  5. casportpony

    casportpony Team Tube Feeding Captain & Poop Inspector General Premium Member

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    Procaine toxicity is a risk with any animal, but more so with birds. I've read that many vets do not recommend procaine penicillin in poultry because of this. If you look in Plumb's Veterinary Drug Handbook the only bird listed is turkey and it says to use with caution in smaller birds.

    I've used the eye drops with "caine" (can't remember name) in birds and the Quick Stop powder *has* benzocaine in it an is labeled for use in birds.

    No offense to anyone, especially those that lost birds after using caine, but I would really like to see a properly documented study on the subject.

    -Kathy
     
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  6. loveourbirds

    loveourbirds Chillin' With My Peeps

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    do you have any ideas of what the safe dosage levels are? how would you cut the dosages in topical lotions (saline, alcohol, etc)? im assuming with blood stop powders you could use corn startch.
     
  7. loveourbirds

    loveourbirds Chillin' With My Peeps

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    for the moment, i am going to assume the wound wash containing lidocaine caused a reaction because it was applied directly to a skull? im no expert here, but since lidocane messes with our neurological system, and i applied it directly to the skull cap that it absorbed and literally overdosed with direct brain contact?

    sorry for the dumb questions guys/gals - trying to figure out the borders here.
     
  8. Eggcessive

    Eggcessive True BYC Addict Premium Member

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    This is over my head. I have heard vets on BYC saying that they use these drugs carefully, while other warn of consequences. There is a lot of info on google about lido caine use in birds, but here is an except from exoticpetvet.net:
    Why Not Local Anesthesia?

    A bird requiring surgery will usually receive general anesthesia. There are several reasons for this. Many local anesthetic agents, such as lidocaine (usually erroneously called novocaine by lay people) that can numb an area, are toxic at doses that provide numbness! Lidocaine must be precisely dosed, and even so, the dose necessary to provide local anesthesia is greater than the toxic dose, in most cases (in small birds). It can be used in tame, large birds, if necessary. Another problem with using a local anesthetic agent is because restraining a bird awake is often very stressful. Signs of overdose with lidocaine may include excitement initially, seizures, depression, respiratory arrest, cardiovascular collapse and death.
     
  9. loveourbirds

    loveourbirds Chillin' With My Peeps

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    im guessing its safe to say that lidocaine is toxic and shouldn't be used. benzocaine, and procaine are safe in small doses, but should be used with caution?

    i only know one vet on here for sure, he does decrowing surgery on roosters. i will try to invite his input, not sure what he can offer. im sure there are other vets on here, feel free to invite them, i would love to hear what they have to say.
     

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