Ayam Cemani Fraud?

Discussion in 'What Breed Or Gender is This?' started by massoumicyrus, Oct 22, 2014.

  1. massoumicyrus

    massoumicyrus Out Of The Brooder

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    So, I purchased 2 Ayam Cemani pairs from 2 different breeders.

    3 of my Ayam's have black eyes & combs now that they are developed (5 months-ish).

    The fourth, a rooster - has developed an off red comb(while as the other 3 have black combs) and he has orange eyes (all of the others have black eyes).

    I believe that I was sold a different Ayam breed (one that has similar appearance) but isn't actually a Cemani. These have red combs/ETC. but aren't Cemani.

    Any suggestions/feedback here?
    >Can an Ayam Cemani even have a red comb/orange eyes?
    >>If not: I feel as if I paid WAY to much from this breeder and should ask for the bulk of my money back.

    Thanks,
    CM
     
  2. lightchick

    lightchick Overrun With Chickens

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    Can you post a pic?
    Sounds like he's not totally Ayam Cemani.
     
  3. massoumicyrus

    massoumicyrus Out Of The Brooder

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    Jun 21, 2014
    Yea, I can, but, to establish a premise:

    An Ayam Cemani can't even have orange eyes. No?

    If anything --- they may be able to have not entirely black combs --- but, they can't have orange eyes. That would mean that I was sold another breed of Ayam's. I've seen pictures of said breed - forget the name - but they are not the Ayam Cemani breed -- They are another Ayam breed which retails for significantly less.

    Further opinion requested. Will post pictures soon ---- if the vendor doesn't agree to a refund/replacement then will also reveal the name of the vendor.

    Best,
    CM
     
  4. Michael OShay

    Michael OShay Chicken Obsessed

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  5. massoumicyrus

    massoumicyrus Out Of The Brooder

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    The vendor is refusing to even entertain the idea of refund -- and claims the only Ayam's they have are ones which need to be culled.
     
  6. Michael OShay

    Michael OShay Chicken Obsessed

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    That's too bad. I suppose there's not much you can do then, unless you decide to take him to court. Although you can certainly put out a warning to others regarding his birds.
     
  7. massoumicyrus

    massoumicyrus Out Of The Brooder

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    Unfortunately, since we live in a country where even if you write something truthful you can still be taken to court for libel & defamation, I'm going to opt not to post the name of the vendor.

    That said: I had a long talk with Ricky White, who is one of the people who is friends with Astin Marie, and got her Ayam Cemani's originally before Greenfire Farms created the media buzz that led to AC's being $2,000 for a juvenile pair.

    I've tried to conduct a somewhat extensive research around AC's and have found the following:
    I know of Astin Marie who was an original AC breeder years before -- who has 2 reputable friends who got her AC's and also breed/sell them. The difference between A.M. and her 2 friends is that they are willing to sell 6 month old AC's that are ready to breed for the same price as Greenfire will sell you a pair of 3 month olds. Also, Rick White is a really nice guy based off of our conversation and has extensive knowledge of the breed.
    Greenfire - which seems to be a year or less in to importing and breeding AC's.
    And, I've heard some rumors that a previous curator of The Smithsonian was able to import his own AC's due to relations he had with people in Indonesia.

    Here's where I become suspicious of AC's, their future, and what I've heard from breeders which makes me reluctant about the breed.
    ___________________

    So, let's say that you buy 2 AC's at 6 months old at present day. You pay $2,000-$2,500.
    >Now you have a hen who will lay between 200-350 eggs per year. Take the mid-point as 275.
    >>Now let's say that you incubate every single egg and have an 80% hatch rate. Now, disregarding the fact that there should be a compound variable since the chickens that hatch after day 21 are going to within 6 months also be laying ---- you now have 220 AC chickens.
    >>>The going rate on the market is $800 for a 3 month old AC, and $1,000-$1,500 depending if you can get an AC which is both older or of better AC attributes.
    >>>>Now let's say that you sell for under market rate and simply sell your AC's for $500, just so that you can sell them for a great deal at less than the market rate.
    >>>>>So, now you've made let's say $40,000 +/- (with this figure not being disputed since you have an added variable of your chicks that you hatched on day 21 hatching their own chicks after 6 months + 21 days, with a variable that you have to account to cut(cull) for the ones that don't have good features, or the 5% that aren't born with the black trait(+ deaths, but with adequate pen space, a minimal concern).

    So, now I'm supposed to believe that for every $2,000 I spend today - 365 days from now that can be $40,000.

    Furthermore, vendors theorize that the AC market is going to have a price schedule as follows:
    This year - $1,000 per AC
    Next year - $750 per AC
    Year After - $500 per AC
    Year After - $250 per AC
    Year After - (Speculatory)

    What I do know based off of some research about AC's domestic to Asia, Indonesia, and more notably their island of origin Java, where they were first discovered as jungle chicken - is that at market:
    Grade A (Perfect black features) -- Sell in Indonesia for $150 --- Their own domestic country
    Grade B - Sells for around $75
    Grade C - is culled/food and thus null.

    Some people in BYC have come out and said that raising AC's isn't going to be profitable, since you're going to have to cull excessively. Simultaneously, the multitude of AC eggs sold on Ebay purchased by many people with a lack of knowledge are actually AC roosters - bred with other dark breeds, and their eggs sold for $100. (Their eggs, $100). Let's just say that eggs even sell for $50, now, instead of a farm chicken that you can't sell for more than $20 even at a farmers market - cooked, is magically $100 - as an egg.

    So, what's missing?

    Something about the Ayam Cemani story is missing, and I don't know what that is. I do believe that the reason for the current price is a reflection of the fact that media hype has elevated the price. But, let's ignore that.

    Let's say that the following is true (just for the sake of argument):
    You buy 3 roosters and 7 hens on Day 1.
    Over 1 year you hatch in excess of 1,400 AC's with --- Let's just say 700 that you choose to sell ---
    at let's say a price point of $500 each. That's $350,000.00 USD
    at a price of even $100, the current price of an egg on ebay --- you've still turned $10,000 into $75,000.
    This, juxtaposed to the fact that the average American family makes $35,000 per year.

    Are they the Goose that lays the Golden Egg?

    I am very much interested to hear people's opinions.

    Thanks,
    Cyrus
     
  8. catface

    catface Chillin' With My Peeps

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    Kendall, Whatcom co.
    The Ayam Cemani is a hot and debated topic. There is no official type or breed specs for the Ayam Cemani. They are not a recognized breed here in the U.S.

    I have been breeding them for a few years now and the roosters do not ever in my experience have a true black comb. They have a very dark "mulberry" colored comb which is almost black looking but gets brighter red if the bird is distressed or you are upsetting his girls.

    There are also a lot of "culls" with this breed. It is very common to breed pure black Ayam Cemani's and get chicks with white wingtips, chest and toes. The gene that causes the all black coloring is a recessive gene. I have bred birds that are 7/8 Ayam Cemani and 1/8 other and gotten all white skin even though they were almost pure Ayam Cemani "Almost" is not always good enough.

    The Ayam Cemani is a bandwagon a lot of people have jumped on. When I started breeding them they sold for almost $5000 a pair. Now you can get chicks for $199 each from top breeders. A huge drop in a short amount of time.

    If you're looking to make money you're better off going with a breed that is recognized and has an official breed standard though I don't think anyone who breeds chickens is going to actually make money at all.
     
  9. catface

    catface Chillin' With My Peeps

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    Kendall, Whatcom co.
    Another thing, The Ayam Cemani only lays about 80 eggs per year. They do not produce like a common laying hen.
     
  10. Manningjw

    Manningjw Chillin' With My Peeps Premium Member

    ^^^^^^^^

    Big reason why I don't own them. That and I am cheap, with a capitol C.
     

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