Black tailed buff marans

Toon

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Aug 9, 2019
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Does anyone know the genetic code for black tailed buff marans? I thought it was wheaten but with CoCo, but then Bev Davis' website says it doesn't have the columbia gene, but does have the MhMh red gene. Also she said she got hers out of a wheaten to wheaten cross, so how could the parents carry the columbia gene (if btb marans actually carry it) without showing it? The chicken calculator says btb os wheaten with the columbia gene, is marans btb different?
 

nicalandia

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Does anyone know the genetic code for black tailed buff marans? I thought it was wheaten but with CoCo, but then Bev Davis' website says it doesn't have the columbia gene, but does have the MhMh red gene. Also she said she got hers out of a wheaten to wheaten cross, so how could the parents carry the columbia gene (if btb marans actually carry it) without showing it? The chicken calculator says btb os wheaten with the columbia gene, is marans btb different?
As far as I am aware they are Wheaten at the e locus(eWh) and Columbian restricted(Co/Co)

On page: http://www.bevsmarans.com/blacktailedbuff.html

They give their line this genetic make up for the black tail phenotype: EWh/EWh s+/s+ Mh/Mh Di/Di

Thoughts on Mh and Di, they cancel eachother to give the buff tone of color, both are classified as columbian restrictors but going by the researchers their effect is much less than Co or Db, but when combined Co, Mh and Di on a wheaten based will produce the self buff type(buff all around no black tail)

I posted this about 8 years ago

Columbian Restrictors on New Hampshire breed


To me BTB Marans are like New Hampshire, Wheaten Columbian Restricted
 

Toon

Chirping
Aug 9, 2019
61
25
58
As far as I am aware they are Wheaten at the e locus(eWh) and Columbian restricted(Co/Co)

On page: http://www.bevsmarans.com/blacktailedbuff.html

They give their line this genetic make up for the black tail phenotype: EWh/EWh s+/s+ Mh/Mh Di/Di

Thoughts on Mh and Di, they cancel eachother to give the buff tone of color, both are classified as columbian restrictors but going by the researchers their effect is much less than Co or Db, but when combined Co, Mh and Di on a wheaten based will produce the self buff type(buff all around no black tail)

I posted this about 8 years ago

Columbian Restrictors on New Hampshire breed


To me BTB Marans are like New Hampshire, Wheaten Columbian Restricted

I'm not sure understand, are you saying:
1 bev is right, the marans don't carry CoCo
2 bev is wrong about the genetic code
3 bev doesn't acually have btb marans, but something else that looks like it

(my intentions aren't arguing, just trying to understand what your point of view is)
 

nicalandia

Crowing
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I'm not sure understand, are you saying:
1 bev is right, the marans don't carry CoCo
2 bev is wrong about the genetic code
3 bev doesn't acually have btb marans, but something else that looks like it

(my intentions aren't arguing, just trying to understand what your point of view is)
The chances of Mahogany and Di working together on bev lines of Black Tailed Buff Marans are very low, specially since it was not a coordinated effort starting with a self buff line(the only known lines to carry both Mh, Di and Co)
 

Toon

Chirping
Aug 9, 2019
61
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The chances of Mahogany and Di working together on bev lines of Black Tailed Buff Marans are very low, specially since it was not a coordinated effort starting with a self buff line(the only known lines to carry both Mh, Di and Co)
I see, thank you :)
 

Toon

Chirping
Aug 9, 2019
61
25
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I've figured it out! It's e^wh e^wh CoCo MhMh DiDi but some people have DbDb instead of CoCo, which turns out the same, but the difference is that CoCo has black markings in their necks, and DbDb don't. I think they're both accepted in america but the french standard prefers them to have black markings :)
 

nicalandia

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Some people have DbDb instead of CoCo, which turns out the same, but the difference is that CoCo has black markings in their necks, and DbDb don't. I think they're both accepted in america but the french standard prefers them to have black markings :)
I really doubt Db is in any line of Marans, Db has a remarkable effect on the females. Db on females will show a pattern, not as crisp as Autosomal brring(combined effect of Db and Pg as in buttercup hens), but very visible, for example the Ginger Old English Bantam hens, they are e+, Db/Db pg+/pg+ and Db alone makes the pattern

 
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Toon

Chirping
Aug 9, 2019
61
25
58
I really doubt Db is in any line of Marans, Db has a remarkable effect on the females. Db on females will show a pattern, not as crisp as Autosomal brring(combined effect of Db and Pg as in buttercup hens), but very visible, for example the Ginger Old English Bantam hens, they are e+, Db/Db pg+/pg+ and Db alone makes the pattern

I'm not an expert, but a few (mostly american) lines seem to have it as they have no columbian markings whatsoever. I asked Bill Grover about this and he told me his line has DbDb instead of CoCo. I'm not saying you're wrong, just that this is what he told me. Some other people have told me the same, they might be wrong. I personally believe the Db gene (or whatever gene is replacing the columbian gene) is in those lines, but they come from a cross that american breeders made because actual btb marans are so rare.
 

nicalandia

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I'm not an expert, but a few (mostly american) lines seem to have it as they have no columbian markings whatsoever.
Co/Co, Mh/Mh and Di/Di will do that on a wheaten base, for example:

eWh/eWh + Co/Co mh+/mh+ = Co alone will turn the gold tone to a buff color and will leave neck pattern, Wheaten being the least of the melanized e allele will not allow for saddle pattern on columbian base for example this delaware rooster(eWh/eWh Co/Co, I know its a silver based but the black and white contrast help us see the lack of pattern on the saddle, the lack of pattern on saddle is due to wheaten as opposed to columbian based on eb like wyandottes)

hredirect2 (1).jpg


New Hampshires males lack the neck pattern they are also wheaten and Columbian restrictor so I suspect Mahogany(inherited from RIR ancestor) and Di not only cancel each other to make it buff instead of red but since both are columbian restrictors they remove/restric the neck pattern

NH rooster
hredirect2.jpg



But I must again go back to the point of not using the males as basis for detecting if its Co or Db as both have about the same effect on males, its the females/hens/pullets that we must focus on this subject, here are Bevs Maran hens, you can clearly see the neck pattern, Db does not produce such pattern

Btb03original.jpg


Db females should not have any pattern on the hackle but on the main body as shown by the Ginger OEG females(perhaps less pronounced or all together gone due to wheaten)


Any pictures of the American lines of BTB Marans Females?
 

Toon

Chirping
Aug 9, 2019
61
25
58
Co/Co, Mh/Mh and Di/Di will do that on a wheaten base, for example:

eWh/eWh + Co/Co mh+/mh+ = Co alone will turn the gold tone to a buff color and will leave neck pattern, Wheaten being the least of the melanized e allele will not allow for saddle pattern on columbian base for example this delaware rooster(eWh/eWh Co/Co, I know its a silver based but the black and white contrast help us see the lack of pattern on the saddle, the lack of pattern on saddle is due to wheaten as opposed to columbian based on eb like wyandottes)

View attachment 2030499

New Hampshires males lack the neck pattern they are also wheaten and Columbian restrictor so I suspect Mahogany(inherited from RIR ancestor) and Di not only cancel each other to make it buff instead of red but since both are columbian restrictors they remove/restric the neck pattern

NH rooster
View attachment 2030500


But I must again go back to the point of not using the males as basis for detecting if its Co or Db as both have about the same effect on males, its the females/hens/pullets that we must focus on this subject, here are Bevs Maran hens, you can clearly see the neck pattern, Db does not produce such pattern

View attachment 2030501

Db females should not have any pattern on the hackle but on the main body as shown by the Ginger OEG females(perhaps less pronounced or all together gone due to wheaten)


Any pictures of the American lines of BTB Marans Females?
I think we mean the same thing, just saying it differently 🤔
Anyway here's a pic (best i could get) from Bill Grover's line (same as cackle hatchery)
 

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