Breeding for Variation in Color& some pics of my birds

Discussion in 'General breed discussions & FAQ' started by tadkerson, Dec 12, 2009.

  1. tadkerson

    tadkerson Chillin' With My Peeps

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    I received an email from a member who wanted to know what cross would produce color variation in the offspring. This is my response to the email.

    Cross a male black sex linked with rhode island red females ( could be any black tailed red , a new hampshire would work also). To get the greatest variation, you must use a male black sex linked. I am assuming the black sex linked is not carrying the pattern gene. This cross will produce the following:

    black birds

    black birds leaking red (females will look like black sex linked)
    black birds leaking silver

    black and barred ( females look like barred rock, males look like black sex linked)
    black tailed silver and barred (delaware like with red and black on back)
    black tailed red and barred (rhodebar but smutty)

    columbian (fully columbian restricted, females silver with red on back, males silver with black on back or black and red on back)
    black tailed red (fully columbian restricted, like a rhode island red some black on back and hackles)

    black tailed silver with partial columbian restriction ( black feathers on a silver breast on males, females will have some black and red on the back)
    black tailed red with partial columbian restriction (( black feathers on a red breast on males, females will have some black on the back)

    male black tailed silver with heavily melanized (black feathers) pyle zone, females with silver breast with the remainder of the bird black mixed with white
    male black tailed silver with heavily melanized pyle zone, females with red breast with the remainder of the bird black mixed with red

    barred male black tailed silver with heavily melanized (smutty black feathers) pyle zone, females barred with silver breast with the remainder of the bird smutty black mixed with white
    barred male black tailed silver with heavily melanized (smutty black feathers) pyle zone, females barred with red breast with the remainder of the bird smutty black mixed with red

    In all of the above phenotypes that are silver males, the males could carry a silver gene and a gold gene. In this case the males will have more red on their backs and shoulders and will develop straw colored hackles. (similar to golden duckwing)

    Tim
     
    Last edited: Dec 14, 2009
  2. catdaddyfro

    catdaddyfro Overrun With Chickens

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    Impressive- and you do all that in your head right?

    Anyway I've tried the calculator and don't get it or just the fact that I gotta thick head (dense you might say) or it very well could be the strawberry blonde(flaxing) streaks that make up about half or what's left of half of this orange hair that is classed as red.

    Anyway I was wondering Tim if you could possibly give me the run down on a cross I'm going for this next hatching season?


    Barred Rock male X Golden Sex-link female=




    catdaddy


    P.S. Just thought I might add: but when I do get 'er I got 'er though.
     
  3. tadkerson

    tadkerson Chillin' With My Peeps

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    Quote:This is how I do it in my head.

    1. the male is barred therefore every chick will be barred. B/b+ or B/_ no problem

    2. The male is extended black ( should have two E genes but not always) and the female is E/ewh = chicks that are black (E/E or E/ewh) or E/ewh chicks that are like a black sex link

    3. Barred rock are normally silver and the female is gold= silver females and silver males

    4. Both the male and female parents carry melanotic so all of the chicks will at least carry one melanotic and some will carry two. This will cause the chicks to be black or they may leak some color (usually on the breast).

    5. If the mother carries dominant white ( does she have a white tail and white in he wings) then half of the offspring will be white.

    6. The sex linked bird will carry one mahogany and also one columbian gene ( the barred rock may also carry columbian- the columbian(s) gene will cause leaking of color on the breast and the mahogany gene will cause any leaking red to be a darker red.


    Put it all together with the assumptions and you get

    1. barred black or barred black leaking silver (females) or straw (in males) or if the barred rock carries gold then you will get some barred black leaking gold.

    2. some may be clean white or some may be white leaking black( females or males) - males will leak buff , if the male parent carries gold then some may be white leaking red (red pyle like but with not as much red). The red may be dark in some of the birds.

    you may also get some more birds that look like the red sex linked female but with more white

    3. If the barred rock is not pure for extended black then you will get some dark silver columbians birds ( some will have red on their backs) or dark black tailed reds. Some of the males will show white or red breasts with black feathering at the top of the breast

    4. Every bird will be barred so any bird that is red ( even if it is leaking red ) will be lightened by the barring gene to a buff and the barring gene will add white to the silver birds.


    Tim
     
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2009
  4. becky3086

    becky3086 Crested Crazy

    Oct 14, 2008
    Thomson, GA
    [​IMG] You had to ask.

    If I could just get my head to grasp the meaning of a couple of those lines, I would be doing good. [​IMG]
     
  5. onthespot

    onthespot Deluxe Dozens

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    Okay, but what if you did the opposite?
    I have a red "silkie" (in parentheses because his type is so poor he is barely recongnizeable as such) and a black fairly typey silkie pullet with horrendous red leakage on her hackles, but it is a very pretty red. What if I crossed those two? is there a chance to breed better reds from the offspring?
     
  6. Germaine_11.20

    Germaine_11.20 Chillin' With My Peeps

    Jun 6, 2009
    Idaho
    Quote:Now I am even more impressed!
     
  7. tadkerson

    tadkerson Chillin' With My Peeps

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    Quote:Yes you could produce better type in a red bird.

    Cross red to black = F1 black leaking red and red with smut (black); pick the offspring with the best type and the most red

    If you hatch an F1 roo that is red then back cross the red F1 to the black female= F2 much better type and some that are black and some that are red.

    another option is to do an F1 cross producing some birds with better type- pick the birds that have the best type and least amount of black or most red

    Continue to pick birds that have the best type and red color and cross them together

    You should have some nice red birds in 3-4 years.

    Tim
     
  8. Germaine_11.20

    Germaine_11.20 Chillin' With My Peeps

    Jun 6, 2009
    Idaho
    Tadkerson, I have a giant blue cochin that has some red(?) brown(?) leakage in the feathers. Can you tell me is this common for blues because I have a giant blue frizzle cochin that has it too and I just went onto ebay and saw some there that also have it.
    Are they culls?
     
  9. catdaddyfro

    catdaddyfro Overrun With Chickens

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    Vernon Parish
    Quote:This is how I do it in my head.

    1. the male is barred therefore every chick will be barred. B/b+ or B/_ no problem

    2. The male is extended black ( should have two E genes but not always) and the female is E/ewh = chicks that are black (E/E or E/ewh) or E/ewh chicks that are like a black sex link

    3. Barred rock are normally silver and the female is gold= silver females and silver males

    4. Both the male and female parents carry melanotic so all of the chicks will at least carry one melanotic and some will carry two. This will cause the chicks to be black or they may leak some color (usually on the breast).

    5. If the mother carries dominant white ( does she have a white tail and white in he wings) then half of the offspring will be white.

    6. The sex linked bird will carry one mahogany and also one columbian gene ( the barred rock may also carry columbian- the columbian(s) gene will cause leaking of color on the breast and the mahogany gene will cause any leaking red to be a darker red.


    Put it all together with the assumptions and you get

    1. barred black or barred black leaking silver (females) or straw (in males) or if the barred rock carries gold then you will get some barred black leaking gold.

    2. some may be clean white or some may be white leaking black( females or males) - males will leak buff , if the male parent carries gold then some may be white leaking red (red pyle like but with not as much red). The red may be dark in some of the birds.

    you may also get some more birds that look like the red sex linked female but with more white

    3. If the barred rock is not pure for extended black then you will get some dark silver columbians birds ( some will have red on their backs) or dark black tailed reds. Some of the males will show white or red breasts with black feathering at the top of the breast

    4. Every bird will be barred so any bird that is red ( even if it is leaking red ) will be lightened by the barring gene to a buff and the barring gene will add white to the silver birds.


    Tim

    Thanks for the info Tim I might have had about half that much figured out but only because I had a similar hatch a couple of years back from crossing a Barred roo x Red/black-tail hens.

    Anyway what I'm going for is Buff Barreds and from what I gathered then is that I'll have to use a F1 barred male out of the cross you explained X Red hen or back to GSL parent, right? If not could you give me the run down for producing the buff barred pattern.

    I've hatched them before out of a Barred roo x either red hen or a GSL hen. So my roo must not have been E/E in the first place. I think?


    catdaddy
     
  10. tadkerson

    tadkerson Chillin' With My Peeps

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    Quote:The leaking of color can be caused by certain genotypes ( genes in a bird) but can be over come in future generations.

    If the bird is the only blue cochin you have to use, use it to breed with another self black (solid black female). Pick a female that has the darkest head and hackle feathers to cross with the male. The cross will produce more leaking males but it will also produce birds that are self black. Then use the self black birds to breed in the future. The genetics behind the problem will determine how many chicks you will have to hatch. If you can hatch 25 or so it would be great but hatch as many as you can. If you hatch too few you may not get the correct gene combination to produce the bird you want.



    Tim
     

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