Breeding Suggestions for an Amateur....

[Gresh]

For awhile now I have considered making my own cross (or breed) while at the same time considering preserving a breed. As time goes on, and more and more breeders tell me that obtaining quality stock can be a very expensive, drawn-out process, I am considering if I should just wait on breed preservation until I'm older and for the time being work on breed creation.

As I waffle back and forth between these two options, I'd like suggestions for the breed creation route. I have always wanted to create a breed that has an Oriental gamefowl build and body carriage, but is not game, lays more eggs, and has soft feathers instead of the usual hard feathers found in Orientals. To give you a picture as to what my vision is, just picture a bird that looks like a Modern Game bantam, but is large fowl; has a shorter beak; has a larger, fuller, more erect tail; has a thicker, longer neck; has a pea, rose, or walnut (aka strawberry or cushion) comb; and has a slightly more erect body carriage than the Modern Game.

Sorry so detailed, but in order to give you an idea as to what I'm thinking, I have to be.

I have considered using Kraienkoppes and mixed-breed Orientals in this cross. Can anyone give anymore suggestions? I am particularly desiring a bird with a longer tail....

Thanks!

 

[nicalandia]

Quote:
oh boy, we have a young one..! its ok I was like you a long time ago, let me give you a nice idea, how about recreating something like the Ayam Cemani? a few of us have seen them and the look cool.. the project is a large one but not as large as the one you have in mind...

 

[Gresh]

Nicalandia:

LOL, yeah, I'm on the young side of the poultry breeding world

I don't know a lot, and what little I know is based on what I've read and heard instead of personal experience.

Ayam Cemani are beautiful birds! The black comb, waddles, and skin are just gorgeous. I like the body carriage, too: somewhat fits the description of what I'm looking for. However, it would have to be an act of Divine proportions for me to get pure Cemanis, or to just get birds that could be bred to look like them. Plus, I personally do not want single combs in my project. The shorter and thicker combs (walnut, especially) are what I desire to avoid frostbite and also to avoid infection from wounds. (I'm not breeding for gameness, but I've seen my bantam Old English Game get some scars on his comb when my d'Uccle cockerel gets angry, and the latter isn't even game

. I really don't want to be putting antiseptic on combs all the time, and dubbing is just inconvenient to me when you can get birds with small combs.)

I've thought about utilizing Leghorns in my project (i.e. crossing a Leghorn rooster with a broody-prone Oriental hen), but I'm a little hesitant because I'm not sure if that will introduce a single-comb problem into my hypothetical project.

What do you think about crossing Malays to Kraienkoppes, or Kraienkoppes to Saipan Jungle Fowl? The Kraienkoppe has gameblood but is not game itself, and it lays a lot better, so that would help the offspring to be more or less dual purpose than their Oriental parent.

 

[sjarvis00]

Quote:
Craeting or re-creating something would actually be more involved than what conserving a breed... Conservation would also be less costly as well.

Find one breed you really like, locate a few gentlemen who have had, worked with, and actively promote that breed and variety. Talk to them at length, show your real interest in teh birds and the desire to breed and maintain them properly. The older breeders will surprise you with generosity.. You see we need young eager folks to take up the cause and keep the birds what they were suposed to be, and the opportunity to mentor someone to your own selection process often lends to birds that the young folks can afford.
Don't give up just because someone told you the best birds fetch high prices, talk to the breeders get to know them, and go from there.

 

[Sonoran Silkies]

Quote:
Craeting or re-creating something would actually be more involved than what conserving a breed... Conservation would also be less costly as well.

Find one breed you really like, locate a few gentlemen who have had, worked with, and actively promote that breed and variety. Talk to them at length, show your real interest in teh birds and the desire to breed and maintain them properly. The older breeders will surprise you with generosity.. You see we need young eager folks to take up the cause and keep the birds what they were suposed to be, and the opportunity to mentor someone to your own selection process often lends to birds that the young folks can afford.
Don't give up just because someone told you the best birds fetch high prices, talk to the breeders get to know them, and go from there.

 

[Gresh]

Quote:
Craeting or re-creating something would actually be more involved than what conserving a breed... Conservation would also be less costly as well.

Find one breed you really like, locate a few gentlemen who have had, worked with, and actively promote that breed and variety. Talk to them at length, show your real interest in teh birds and the desire to breed and maintain them properly. The older breeders will surprise you with generosity.. You see we need young eager folks to take up the cause and keep the birds what they were suposed to be, and the opportunity to mentor someone to your own selection process often lends to birds that the young folks can afford.
Don't give up just because someone told you the best birds fetch high prices, talk to the breeders get to know them, and go from there.

Well, I see what you're saying, but honestly I don't think it's as cheap to preserve the breeds I'm thinking of as it would be to create a breed. I am a gamefowl/gamefowl ancestry person, and the breeds I support are expensive, rare, and hard to obtain. The breeders I know sound like they are under 60 years old, and they are very picky about who they give their birds to. They are not the kind of people who are enthusiastic about young people desiring to promote the breed: they are the kind of people who only give birds to professionals of an older age, and do not give birds to amateurs of a younger age. They sell even their culls for high prices, and for me to ask for birds at a cheap price from them--well, let's just say they'd laugh me clean out of the gamefowl world. They say to join the SPPA if I want to have a good chance at getting good birds, and though I see the logic in this, it is just as probable that I would meet the same hesitancy and opposition because I myself do not have a lot of experience with chickens. I imagine that they would just tell me to come back in ten years when I've got more of a head on my shoulders.
I don't know these things for sure, but they are the kind of things I have inferred from the attitudes and reputations of these people.

 

[cubalaya]

Quote:
Craeting or re-creating something would actually be more involved than what conserving a breed... Conservation would also be less costly as well.

Find one breed you really like, locate a few gentlemen who have had, worked with, and actively promote that breed and variety. Talk to them at length, show your real interest in teh birds and the desire to breed and maintain them properly. The older breeders will surprise you with generosity.. You see we need young eager folks to take up the cause and keep the birds what they were suposed to be, and the opportunity to mentor someone to your own selection process often lends to birds that the young folks can afford.
Don't give up just because someone told you the best birds fetch high prices, talk to the breeders get to know them, and go from there.

i agree. there are enough breeds that are rare or threatened that need breeders to preserve them. i have crossed birds in attempting to get the best of both breeds but in the next generations they will not breed true and even if they did what would you really have? you can grade one breed into another to improve a breed. but to make a new breed? why?

 

[GotGame]

Quote:
Craeting or re-creating something would actually be more involved than what conserving a breed... Conservation would also be less costly as well.

Find one breed you really like, locate a few gentlemen who have had, worked with, and actively promote that breed and variety. Talk to them at length, show your real interest in teh birds and the desire to breed and maintain them properly. The older breeders will surprise you with generosity.. You see we need young eager folks to take up the cause and keep the birds what they were suposed to be, and the opportunity to mentor someone to your own selection process often lends to birds that the young folks can afford.
Don't give up just because someone told you the best birds fetch high prices, talk to the breeders get to know them, and go from there.

Well, I see what you're saying, but honestly I don't think it's as cheap to preserve the breeds I'm i of as it would be to create a breed. I am a gamefowl/gamefowl ancestry person, and the breeds I support are expensive, rare, and hard to obtain. The breeders I know sound like they are under 60 years old, and they are very picky about who they give their birds to. They are not the kind of people who are enthusiastic about young people desiring to promote the breed: they are the kind of people who only give birds to professionals of an older age, and do not give birds to amateurs of a younger age. They sell even their culls for high prices, and for me to ask for birds at a cheap price from them--well, let's just say they'd laugh me clean out of the gamefowl world. They say to join the SPPA if I want to have a good chance at getting good birds, and though I see the logic in this, it is just as probable that I would meet the same hesitancy and opposition because I myself do not have a lot of experience with chickens. I imagine that they would just tell me to come back in ten years when I've got more of a head on my shoulders.
I don't know these things for sure, but they are the kind of things I have inferred from the attitudes and reputations of these people.

I believe i know who you are referring to, and i dont believe he would be.that.hard to work woth. But if he saw you werent even willing to join sppa, which even though joining would be a gamble, the price of joining is nothing compared.to the valuable insight and information you.could glean from other members, it would.be beneficial for a gamefowl fancier anyway, and it would b.an opportunity to find more breeders, but if u are unwilling to spend the few bucks to join, that would say to me your not that interested or dedicated in acquiring said breed of fowl. Many of these guys that own rare fowl have acquired them through a lot of.hard work or a lot of money, or both in many cases. And i can understand their hesitancy to turn their years of hard work over to someone that is unwilling to jump through a few hoops.

 

[Gresh]

Quote:
Well, I see what you're saying, but honestly I don't think it's as cheap to preserve the breeds I'm i of as it would be to create a breed. I am a gamefowl/gamefowl ancestry person, and the breeds I support are expensive, rare, and hard to obtain. The breeders I know sound like they are under 60 years old, and they are very picky about who they give their birds to. They are not the kind of people who are enthusiastic about young people desiring to promote the breed: they are the kind of people who only give birds to professionals of an older age, and do not give birds to amateurs of a younger age. They sell even their culls for high prices, and for me to ask for birds at a cheap price from them--well, let's just say they'd laugh me clean out of the gamefowl world. They say to join the SPPA if I want to have a good chance at getting good birds, and though I see the logic in this, it is just as probable that I would meet the same hesitancy and opposition because I myself do not have a lot of experience with chickens. I imagine that they would just tell me to come back in ten years when I've got more of a head on my shoulders.
I don't know these things for sure, but they are the kind of things I have inferred from the attitudes and reputations of these people.

I believe i know who you are referring to, and i dont believe he would be.that.hard to work woth. But if he saw you werent even willing to join sppa, which even though joining would be a gamble, the price of joining is nothing compared.to the valuable insight and information you.could glean from other members, it would.be beneficial for a gamefowl fancier anyway, and it would b.an opportunity to find more breeders, but if u are unwilling to spend the few bucks to join, that would say to me your not that interested or dedicated in acquiring said breed of fowl. Many of these guys that own rare fowl have acquired them through a lot of.hard work or a lot of money, or both in many cases. And i can understand their hesitancy to turn their years of hard work over to someone that is unwilling to jump through a few hoops.

Well, it's not the price of joining the SPPA that discourages me: it's the lack of guarantee that I'll even get any birds out of it when I do join. Even if I was an SPPA member, these guys won't give birds to amateurs. I've inferred enough to know that. And joining the SPPA does not make me any less amateur or any more professional. It does make me more dedicated, though, and for that reason alone I am considering joining. I hope once I do that they will begin to see my dedication, even if I'm not a professional....

 

[Gresh]

Quote:
Craeting or re-creating something would actually be more involved than what conserving a breed... Conservation would also be less costly as well.

Find one breed you really like, locate a few gentlemen who have had, worked with, and actively promote that breed and variety. Talk to them at length, show your real interest in teh birds and the desire to breed and maintain them properly. The older breeders will surprise you with generosity.. You see we need young eager folks to take up the cause and keep the birds what they were suposed to be, and the opportunity to mentor someone to your own selection process often lends to birds that the young folks can afford.
Don't give up just because someone told you the best birds fetch high prices, talk to the breeders get to know them, and go from there.

i agree. there are enough breeds that are rare or threatened that need breeders to preserve them. i have crossed birds in attempting to get the best of both breeds but in the next generations they will not breed true and even if they did what would you really have? you can grade one breed into another to improve a breed. but to make a new breed? why?

I see what you're saying, but one reason alone stands out to me as to why I should consider making a new breed: because I cannot afford to lay down $200 per chicken for an existing breed.