Chicks on layers pellets

[hellfire]

I’ve hatched and sold poultry for years and am shocked by this. I sold fertile eggs to a man very late in the season as he returned some young ducks as they were scared of his children. He contacted me to ask if I’d like the chickens he hatched back as just couldn’t have poultry in his garden and wasn’t working out now.
I went to collect them today and they are TINY for 16 week old birds. They are barred Plymouth Rock x RIR. I asked if he’s fed what I’d suggested and said no they’ve been on layers pellets and mixed corn since they hatched! I only had chick crumb mixed in for the first week. I’m amazed 3 survived as I gave him 12 eggs. Apparently a few died at hatch and sounds like his humidity was way too high.
I’ve put them in quarantine and just wondering if anyone actually knows the long term effects of rearing them on that diet? He also only had them under heat for a week.
Needless to say he only reared 3 to this age. Apparently they’ve had greens regularly too such as cabbage broccoli and lots and lots of sweet corn.

 

[U_Stormcrow]

Long term, excessive calcium in layer feed is associated with higher incidence of mortality - particularly in cockerels - due to kidney damage. Short term, the low protein plus the rest of that diet looks a lot like malnutrition and, loosely, "failure to thrive".

I've seen no reliable studies on ways to "fix" the excess calcium build up in the kidneys, but they are quite young, so (as with any condition where the dosage is the poison) there is room for reasonable hope. "I'm not dead yet", I believe, is the quote.

I'd put then on a starter/grower or an all flock (my choice, due to my flock composition), though both are very similar feeds and see what happens. In life, nothing is assured - if there's been no damage done thus far, getting them on a proper diet causes no harm. If there is some damage, its a roll of the dice as to whether its enough to have a health impact, and whether that impact will end them prematurely, or if they first go down to disease or the butcher's knife...

When you find yourself digging a hole, the first step is to "stop digging".

 

[hellfire]

I always read the feed bags, it's printed right on them what ages to feed what...I guess that guy didn't bother to read. I wish the feed bags would print a bold type sentence on the front to please refer to proper age feeding chart on back of bag.

I have 5 Maran hens, they're almost 2 yrs old now, laying big, beautiful dark brown eggs. Before I got them, I was told they were fed the proper chick feed, but when they got older they mixed pellets in & those were layer pellets, too soon. I'm not positive how long they were fed wrong, but when I got them I adjusted their feed to be on the safe side & didn't get them on layer feed again til they started laying eggs. I have not seen any illness or issues with them. I know too much calcium too soon was not good, but all I can do is hope their kidneys are ok. They're very sweet, active & good natured birds.

This bloke clearly didn’t listen to me as he asked me about hatching and raising even though he told me he knew all about keeping any birds due to hatching budgies!
I was quite blunt when I collected them and said they are tiny and your lucky they’ve survived.
He has another several bantams he’s hatched since which he needs gone and some of them are only 4 weeks old and on layers pellets. Was quite tempted to say I’d go back and take them too but no room right now with locking everything up and quarantining them.
Have messaged a friend to ask if she has room.
Your right they need to put it in bold on the front of bags for people who don’t research or read. I often start mine onto layers pellets at about 17/18 weeks old and never had a issue with that. I mix flock raiser in the feeders when they go out with the flock so they get a mix for another week or two. So by 19/20 weeks they are on full layers pellets diet.

 

[JacinLarkwell]

I don’t see any Marans in that picture. I thought Marans had feathered feet?

French style marans have feathered legs.

 

[Ridgerunner]

I used to have links to more studies about feeding excess calcium to growing chicks. This is not the best one but it's the only link I have left. These places are constantly upgrading and improving their storage and online access so the links are often broken. I'm not going to spend the time searching for more studies.

http://en.engormix.com/MA-poultry-i.../avian-gout-causes-treatment-t1246/165-p0.htm

Anyway, there are studies out there that show excess calcium can sometimes injure growing chicks. I'm trying to be careful how I phrase that, there is enough panic o this subject already. These studies show that if growing chicks are fed feed with the amount of calcium in Layer feed chick mortality increases. This does not mean every chick dies. It means that they raise different groups of chicks as identical as they can with the only difference being that one group is fed nothing but feed equivalent to Layer and the other is fed an equivalent feed but with the calcium content closer to 1% as opposed to the approximately 4% calcium in Layer.

In the group with the 4% calcium the number of chicks that died was higher than the number of chicks that died when fed 1% calcium. They raised several batches like this. The results were consistent across the different batches. They also cut some chicks open at various ages to inspect internal organs. Again the results were consistent, more chicks in the 4% group had more kidney or liver damage than the chicks in the 1% group.

What can we learn from this? Not all the 4% chicks died. Not all the 4% chicks had internal damage. But enough did that it was clear that feeding them Layer can cause damage to growing chicks and should be avoided.

Another important thing is that one bite will not kill them. The damage is cumulative. The longer they are on that diet the worse it is. One study I saw did not start feeding them the excess calcium until the chicks were 5 weeks old. Other studies started at hatch. The numbers might have been different but the conclusion was the same. Feeding growing chicks that much calcium can harm a growing chick.

One important thing is that these chicks in the studies were fed nothing but the high calcium feed. It is not about how much calcium is in one bite, it's about how many total grams of calcium they eat all day, and even that is averaged out over several days. The more their diet consists of low calcium foods the less the total amount of calcium is so the smaller the chance of damage. If we are raising ours in brooders we are providing everything they eat so they may be getting a lot of calcium. But if they are being raised where they can forage for a lot of their feed the amount of high calcium feed they eat may not be very much. This is especially true with my chicks raised by my broodies. These chicks get some feed first thing in the morning and may get one more feeding later in the day but my broodies keep them out foraging the rest of the time.

I don't feed Layer at all. I feed Starter or Grower to everyone with oyster shell on the side for the ones that need it for egg shells. Even if I did feed Layer I don't think my broody-raised chicks would eat enough to harm themselves. My brooder-raised chicks would be different. But since I don't know I don't take a chance and avoid Layer.

@hellfire from your post I'm not convinced the difference in size is due to calcium. How did you feed yours, especially what protein levels and how much foraging did they do? My guess is that he fed them a pretty low protein diet with that corn and those greens. It's also possible since they were not heated after the first week that may have set them back some but I don't know what temperatures they went through. They were raised differently from yours, it's no surprise they are different.

How would I feed them from now on? On your regular diet. If any harm has been done it is already done. If it is malnutrition they may never get as big as they could have on a different diet but they should straighten out and thrive on your diet. I just don't see any other option.

 

[Liz Birdlover]

I don’t see any Marans in that picture. I thought Marans had feathered feet?

Some do. These are sex link Maran hens, 3 have the black with chest copper feathers, 2 are all black. Of course when buying chicks, the seller can call them anything. These chicks were at Tractor Supply being sold as sex link Maran hens, so not sure who bred them. Their eggs are so dark brown though, when they 1st started laying it looked like chocolate eggs!

Here are some photos of Marans, some have foot feathers, some don't. I'm not into showing or breeding them for perfection. Their eggs are amazing though, really nice size & they're good layers.

https://images.app.goo.gl/ZY1WFoEXzfdCgza39

https://images.app.goo.gl/qqSyfMhLeUx1A9VB8

 

[JacinLarkwell]

I always raise mine on layer crumble. Had one set of problems I still don't believe was food caused. Everyone else was just fine.

 

[Kiki]

I always raise mine on layer crumble. Had one set of problems I still don't believe was food caused. Everyone else was just fine.

Oh my.
Too much calcium for too long of a period at two young of an age causes irreversible damage to kidneys.

How many birds have you lost over the years of your chicken keeping?

 

[Liz Birdlover]

I always read the feed bags, it's printed right on them what ages to feed what...I guess that guy didn't bother to read. I wish the feed bags would print a bold type sentence on the front to please refer to proper age feeding chart on back of bag.

I have 5 Maran hens, they're almost 2 yrs old now, laying big, beautiful dark brown eggs. Before I got them, I was told they were fed the proper chick feed, but when they got older they mixed pellets in & those were layer pellets, too soon. I'm not positive how long they were fed wrong, but when I got them I adjusted their feed to be on the safe side & didn't get them on layer feed again til they started laying eggs. I have not seen any illness or issues with them. I know too much calcium too soon was not good, but all I can do is hope their kidneys are ok. They're very sweet, active & good natured birds.

 

[hellfire]

Long term, excessive calcium in layer feed is associated with higher incidence of mortality - particularly in cockerels - due to kidney damage. Short term, the low protein plus the rest of that diet looks a lot like malnutrition and, loosely, "failure to thrive".

I've seen no reliable studies on ways to "fix" the excess calcium build up in the kidneys, but they are quite young, so (as with any condition where the dosage is the poison) there is room for reasonable hope. "I'm not dead yet", I believe, is the quote.

I'd put then on a starter/grower or an all flock (my choice, due to my flock composition), though both are very similar feeds and see what happens. In life, nothing is assured - if there's been no damage done thus far, getting them on a proper diet causes no harm. If there is some damage, its a roll of the dice as to whether its enough to have a health impact, and whether that impact will end them prematurely, or if they first go down to disease or the butcher's knife...

When you find yourself digging a hole, the first step is to "stop digging".

Thanks for that. I’ve put them onto growers feed as already had some. They do look malnourished. I’d heard of kidney failure but wasn’t sure if it was proven in hens and cockerels or at all.
I think it will be a waiting game as to if these 3 start to thrive now. 16 weeks old and they look like how mine do at 7 weeks old size wise.