Color outcome of hatching chicks

Discussion in 'Raising Baby Chicks' started by TurtlePowerTrav, Nov 19, 2012.

  1. TurtlePowerTrav

    TurtlePowerTrav T.K.'s Farm

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    I have a BQ Splash Orpington cockerel over HQ Buff Orp's, Barred Rock's and Production Red's. I have 2 eggs under a broody(had a 3rd but it did not develop). The 2 remaining eggs are one each of my BO and BR. What will be the possible color outcomes? Also will the BR chicks be barred if male and non-barred if female? Is there a color outcome calculator site? Thanks
     
  2. TurtlePowerTrav

    TurtlePowerTrav T.K.'s Farm

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    Anyone?
     
  3. sumi

    sumi Égalité Staff Member

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  4. TurtlePowerTrav

    TurtlePowerTrav T.K.'s Farm

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  5. Ridgerunner

    Ridgerunner Chicken Obsessed

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    You might try this calculator. There is a bit of a learning curve but if you can get the English in the drop-down menu, it's not that hard.

    Cross Calculator
    http://kippenjungle.nl/Overzicht.htm#kipcalculator

    With a Splash rooster with any of those hens you should get blue chicks in the first generation. If you cross the offspring you will get a true variety but the first generation is pretty set.

    With the barred rock hens, the males will be barred and the females will not. I'm not sure how well you will be able to see the spot on the head of the newly hatched cockerels from that cross.

    In that calculator, try the dropdown menu for the rooster and the hen where it is in English. Then on the right, hit "to Chicken Calculator. When you get to that screen, hit Calculate Crossing a bit down the screen.
     
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2012
  6. TurtlePowerTrav

    TurtlePowerTrav T.K.'s Farm

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    Thanks RR. I am working on future egg layers and meat birds. I want to stop having to buy chicken at the store. You always have good advice. [​IMG]
     
  7. Ridgerunner

    Ridgerunner Chicken Obsessed

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    I was leaving for Thanksgiving and gave you a short answer. At least for me it was short.

    First, I have a pretty good idea what hatchery quality means, although different hatcheries have different quality birds. They have to. They have different people selecting which chickens breed. Different people select for different traits but with their pen breeding method they will never be able to produce show-quality chickens. Oh, they might occasionally get one but it is pure luck. In general a hatchery quality chicken should have the approximate color and pattern of what the breed is supposed to look like. But it will be an approximation and is often not all that close. They generally lay better than the breed average and probably go broody less than the breed average. Hatcheries are in the business of mass producing birds for the general public, not producing birds for show.

    With breeders I have a much less idea of what the chicken is like. It depends on the breeder. Some people get hatchery chickens and breed them with no reference to the SOP and call themselves breeders. Some breed for show and pay no attention to production qualities or behavioral traits. Some breed for production and pay less attention to show quality traits. Some breeders, and these are extremely rare, breed for show, behavior, and production. Different breeders not only have different goals but different levels of knowledge and ability. It’s also not unheard of for top quality breeders to mix in other breeds or colors to get rid of a bad trait or improve a good one. Responsible breeders then go through enough generations to get them back to “purebred” status but not every human being on this planet is responsible. I’m not trying to criticize any of these, even the first I mentioned, as long as they are upfront about what they are doing.

    I’m going through this long spiel to just say I don’t know how pure any of your birds are for genetics. I once kept a hatchery Speckled Sussex rooster that was obviously split for mahogany based on his offspring. And unless I know the individual breeder’s goals, abilities, and ethics, I really don’t know what you will get. Still, with either one, you have to assume the genetics are what they are supposed to be.

    Sorry but this is one of my rants when I see “breeder quality”. I’ve played a bit with genetics. I have a tremendous amount of respect for the breeders that know what they are doing and are ethical about what they do. I see many people on here put anyone that calls themselves a breeder up on a pedestal and worship them as a god. That just rubs me the wrong way. It gives people the wrong expectations of what to expect and I think it is disrespectful to the people that are good and are honest about what they are doing.

    I also don’t know the genetic background of your production reds. Different hatcheries make birds they call production reds different ways. They could have some really mixed up genetics but in the first generation crossed with your Splash rooster, the results should be pretty consistent. It’s the next generation where things could show up.

    Buff is hard too. There are different ways to make buff and some of those components can have a strange reaction, even in the first generation. In theory, a splash rooster over a buff hen should produce solid blue chicks, but I would not at all be surprised to see two-toned birds. You might not recognize it until the feathers come in but don’t be surprised to see some pretty big patches of yellow-buff feathers at random spots. I can’t remember who but someone on this forum has posted some really nice photos of two-toned offspring of black birds crossed with buff. That’s basically what you are doing. It’s just that the blue gene from the splash modifies the black to blue.

    Something else to be aware of. You are playing with two different sex linked genes, silver/gold and barred. With both of these, the hen will give a gene to her sons but not her daughters. I’d expect your Splash and Barred Rock to be pure for silver and your production reds and Buff Orps pure for gold. Silver is dominant over gold. Barred is dominant over not-barred.

    What this means is that your Buff Orps and Production Reds (PR) will give a copy of their gold genes to their sons and not their daughters. The Splash rooster will give silver genes to both his sons and daughters. The BR will give silver to her sons. The BR will also give a barred gene to her sons but not her daughters. If you keep the offspring of the Splash Rooster and BR hen as your next rooster and the daughters of all the others, you lose the gold gene. You will never have red chickens. They will all be black, white, splash, blue, or barred.

    If you keep a rooster from the offspring of your PR or Buff Orp, you will get a rooster that is half gold/half silver but not barred. If you cross him back to his sisters, you will get black, white, red, splash, and blue offspring but you lose the barring.

    There is an easy way to save both of these genes. Keep a rooster from the offspring and breed him back to the original hens. You can breed him to his sisters too. If red and barred are both important to you, I’d suggest keeping a non-barred rooster for the first one, then breed him back to the original hens and some sisters. That way you will have some gold in the mix and it will eventually come out. Then keep a rooster that is barred from the next generation. If you want blue and splash to remain in your flock, I’d suggest this one be a blue rooster, but that is not really necessary. You should have enough blue hens by now that you can keep that gene active. Splash is when the chicken has two copies of blue. Unless you keep a blue rooster at some point, you will never have splash. Obviously your first generation rooster will be blue, but I’m talking about following generations.

    The blue/splash should be pretty easy to keep in your flock since it shows up if it is there and is passed down to both male and female from both parents but the gold that makes red and the barring can be lost if you don’t take a bit of care in which roosters you keep. Hens are also important but watch the roosters.

    To me part of the fun of mixing offspring is that you can get a tremendous variety of colors and patterns in the second generation if the original parents have a variety of genes to start with, but those sex linked genes can get a bit tricky.
     
  8. TurtlePowerTrav

    TurtlePowerTrav T.K.'s Farm

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    Thanks again RR. Lots of good info there, and I think I understand most of it. I learn better hands-on, so "playing" will help me more. I am eventually going to breed Silkies and maybe a couple of other breeds. And yes I agree with you about being up front with people about the chicken they are getting. Once I actually start my breeding program I will be using birds from reputable bloodlines, like Catdance, HinkJC and so on. For my current birds they will primarily be used in my egg and meat production for myself, so I am really gonna play around with colors and splitting back and stuff you discussed. Hopefully my DW will tolerate it. [​IMG] The silkies I am getting her are from Marge Best(don't know if you have heard of her or not) and I will be asking her what are in her blood lines as these may be what I start my silkie breeding with, depending on lines. I know I still have a long way to go to really get a grasp on the genetic stuff, but have a basic knowledge to start off with. For instance, I have a b**** of a PR that I will try and breed at least once to see temperament of her offspring. If they are like their mom then she will not be used in the future, as it is a trait I don't want in my yard. This could be a fun ride. I have the legal ability to have 999 birds(though realistically will have between 50-100). And once my program is rolling along, I will get NPIP certified. Thanks again for taking the time and energy to expand my knowledge. It is much appreciated.
     
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2012
  9. Ridgerunner

    Ridgerunner Chicken Obsessed

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    On your other thread about this someone mentioned leakage. This is an example from a Speckled Sussex rooster over a Black Australorp hen. Every rooster from this cross had leakage like this. None of the pullets did.

    [​IMG]

    Some of the leakage was gold colored like this and some was dark red. That's why I think the rooster was split for mahogany. If he had been pure for mahogany, I think all the leakage would be dark red, not gold like this.
     
  10. TurtlePowerTrav

    TurtlePowerTrav T.K.'s Farm

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    Here ya go Ridgerunner
    [​IMG]
    Blue/Buff Orp on left, Blue Orp/BR on right. Looks like the BR may have barring, I really hope it does(can't tell from flash) so I can work on Blue Barred Rocks.
     

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