Cream Legbar Breed - Small Crest vs Big Crest (which is better?)

[Eelantha]

This is my first time with Cream Legbars. I am by no means a poultry expert, so I apologize in advance if my theory sounds foolish to any experienced breeder. Nevertheless after witnessing this in my own backyard, I feel this is something that needs to be addressed, just in case this hints at something more.

Of the two CCL hens that I possess, one has a big crest, the other has a small crest. At one point during wintertime, temps in my non-heated coop went below -10°C/14°F with +75% humidity, and to protect my chickens against the cold I put the whole flock under Vaseline. The results were worse rather than better. Of the victims, my small-crested pullet's comb caught frostbite. My big-crested pullet, of the same bloodline as her sister, had no such problems.

I waved the matter off as a difference of resilience, because some birds are just born better fit to fight off the cold than others. It happens all the time. But the thought nagged at me as the months passed: what if my big-crested pullet evaded comb frostbite specifically because her bigger crest protected her comb better against the cold and humidity than her sister's smaller crest?

Here's some pictures for visuals and comparison:

This is Lucy, the poor frostbitten sweetheart who now sports four spikes rather than six: small wattles, damaged single comb and a small crest.

And here's my miracle hen, Duchesse: small wattles, medium-sized single comb and a big crest.

Common sense says Cream Legbars are all vulnerable to comb frostbite, regardless of crest size. But if small-crested Cream Legbars are more susceptible to comb frostbite than big-crested Cream Legbars, then big crests might be an advantage to consider in colder regions. The question is, am I the only one who has witnessed this big versus small contrast, or have others seen it as well in their own backyards regardless of where they are on the globe?

If anyone has at one point seen a frostbitten CCL and remembers the bird(s)'s crest size, please don't hesitate to speak up, it'd be nice to shed light on this mystery together!

(**Note: Since the Crested Cream Legbar does not yet have an official APA recognized SOP, I thought it more appropriate to post this thread in the General Breed section rather than the Exhibition, Genetics and Breeding to the SOP section. If mods feel this topic is better discussed in the EGBS section, I will post it there.)

 

[GaryDean26]

The big crest is better. You want a crest that has the feathers combed backwards and not sticking straight out from the head. Your bib crested pullet is correct. You want crests that don't obstruct the birds vision. Your big crested pullet looks good in that regard too. Your small crested pullet is not what you want. She is not breeder quality. These small crested pullets usually are only carrying one cresting gene and if that is the case they could have offspring that are not crested at all.

 

[Eelantha]

I did not know Legbars needed two crest genes to have a big crest... but it makes alot of sense. Have any of your big crested pullets caught frostbite over the years, or is that tendency more frequent in any small crested pullet you might have kept in your first CCL breeding years before you started culling them out?

 

[GaryDean26]

I did not know Legbars needed two crest genes to have a big crest... but it makes alot of sense. Have any of your big crested pullets caught frostbite over the years, or is that tendency more frequent in any small crested pullet you might have kept in your first CCL breeding years before you started culling them out?

The crest size doesn't factor into the frostbite issue. The comb is what factors into the frostbite. About 8 years ago I was reading in a chicken breeding cometary about the single comb and it said that you want wide shallow serrations on the comb. It said that long thin points and points that had the backward wave/bend were indicative of low vigor and should be culled. I couldn't figure out for a long time why a backward bend to the points on the comb would indicate a bird's vigor until three years ago when I decided to winter over a dozen Cream Legbar cockerels to see which ones did and which ones didn't get frostbite. In the spring I took photos of all their combs as well as the Black Copper Marans cockerel and the Columbian Plymouth Rock cockerel who were my control subjects in the group. It was pretty clear cut. Those with the correct combs with wide serrations and no backward wave all made it through the winter without any frostbite. Those with the combs that were listed as incorrect and indications of poor vigor all had frostbite (crest size mad zero difference). Our Marans and Plymothrock didn't see very many birds with incorrect combs. The Cream Legbars, however, has about 80% of the flock with the low vigor combs. So...we are now working on getting the correct combs fixed into the breeding lines. There are tons of details in breeding chickens. The comb is one of about a half dozen things we have learned in the time we have worked with Cream Legbars. We have learned that you can't just put a cockerel in with some hens and expect to have success. You have to breed for vigor first, then production, then types, then colors. There is a big learning curve in each step. I was told early on that it takes about 10 years until you feel like you know what you are doing with breeding chickens and that you can't get to that point without a mentor. The Frostbite experiment helped me understand where that advice cames from. We learn more and more each year and hope that one day we will feel like we know what we are doing.

 

[EggSighted4Life]

At one point during wintertime, temps in my non-heated coop went below -10°C/14°F with +75% humidity, and to protect my chickens against the cold I put the whole flock under Vaseline. The results were worse rather than better. Of the victims, my small-crested pullet's comb caught frostbite.

Hi there.

14 F is not really that cold... but the humidity is what increases frost bite. Adding some better ventilation or finding a way to decrease humidity inside your coop might help.

So are you saying that the vaseline actually made it worse?

(**Note: Since the Crested Cream Legbar does not yet have an official APA recognized SOP, I thought it more appropriate to post this thread in the General Breed section rather than the Exhibition, Genetics and Breeding to the SOP section. If mods feel this topic is better discussed in the EGBS section, I will post it there.)

Anyways, I always like to refer to SOP that is available... so included the "proposed" SOP here for reference...
https://creamlegbarclub.com/breed-1/
Sounds like the other poster has worked with this breed for a while and gave good information. I agree the larger crest is prettier.

It said that long thin points and points that had the backward wave/bend were indicative of low vigor and should be culled.

I had always culled funny points just for aesthetic appeal and had not heard that previously. Thank you for sharing!

 

[GaryDean26]

I had always culled funny points just for aesthetic appeal and had not heard that previously. Thank you for sharing!

I have read 4-5 breeding books/commentaries from the 1900-1920's and 2-3 from the last decade. The level of breeding knowledge in the 1900-1920 guides is amazing. It far outpassed anything that is being published now. That generation had a wealth of knowledge that has largely been lost. The old standards are written with purpose and intent. We read them now and wonder why it makes a difference if the birds has a 30 deg tail or a 45 degree tail. They didn't wonder. They knew how form affected function and it was clear what the intent of the bird was by the way the standard was put together. Having a standard to breed to is a great tool. You see a lot of people say they don't need SOP birds because they are just interested in utilities but if you want thrifty and productive birds the SOP is the Cliff notes on how to get there.

 

[Eelantha]

@GaryDean26 - how wide and shallow must those serrations be? I can't compare much when it comes to roosters because I'm only allowed to have one on my property (grrr). My CCL rooster gained a floppy comb from the type of feeder that I use for my chickens, but beyond that I'm not sure what to look for.

I've kept chickens for four years, but I've only gotten serious about what to check in chickens in the last year and a half, majorly thanks to reading backyard chickens and personal attrait for a semi self-sufficient life. I'm at the testing stage, mingling different breeds in my backyard to see which ones fare best in my coop. My experimental flock is also there to help me learn how to judge body constitution and spot flaws. I gather those can differ by breed SOP, but several of them are the same so I'm focusing on those.

I'm currently attempting to measure chicken heads/tell the good heads from the bad ones via scratch craddle's guide on the matter (cue this post about crests and comb size), am trying to understand what people mean by long, middle and short backs (as well as deep and non-deep bodies), and spot curved backs in my flock (not sure what to look/feel for exactly beyond seriously bent or upbent backs). I have no one except Backyard Chickens and youtube for mentors. I have not yet read 1900-1920 guides on how to breed chickens, though I do yearn to (eventually) get my hands on an old book that's simple and easy to understand.

@EggSighted4Life - Hi EggSighted! You are right about humidity being the biggest threat in my coop, and that is the one thing I cannot control because the shed which contains my coop belongs to my landlady, and it has no ventilation, snif. My spot near Fleuve Saint-Laurent means I'm living in a very humid climate during wintertime; it oscillates between 70-75% on good days, and reaches past 80% when temps warm up the slightest bit. The humidity sacks I bought to deal with that didn't even make a dent in the coop's interior humidity, so I am currently stuck.

Yes, in my case the Vaseline did not help. The Vaseline is a moisturizing gauze, but I'd read about two dozen times in different web pages that people and even specialists were using Vaseline against frostbite for their own flocks, so I was left conflicted, wondering whether or not to apply it to my own chickens. With no Quebecan backyarder near me to call up for a second opinion, and no time to post a thread on BYC about it (it was late evening), I blindly followed the web trend with crossed fingers and a prayer. I still feel incredibly stupid to this day for doing it. I was lucky to not loose any of my birds to frostbite, but the very fact some of them caught it was enough to make me give a wide berth to Vaseline from now on. If there IS a trick to successfully protect chickens with Vaseline, I sure as hell haven't come across it yet.

I am trying to understand what to look/feel for in a chicken when I test them for SOP, but in-between being self-taught and distinguishing a good body type from a bad body type when I have only written descriptions of what to look for in a single specimen (two, for my legbars), I'm progressing at a slow pace. Such is life xD

 

[GaryDean26]

This one has a really pretty comb and I was picking cockerels with combs like this before our comb frostbite test group. My favorite cockerel in the group had a comb like this and he last all of his points to frost bite.

Here is another one that is about as pretty but even worse for frostbite. That is NOT what you want. A poultry judge would look at those thin points and say, "poor vigor" and not be impressed with the bird.

This white legbar does NOT have a pretty comb. The first point looks pretty good, the second point has a backward wave which is not good, the 3rd point is perfect though. I have seen photos of Legbars in the USA that have all their points about shape/size as the 3rd points on this white cockerel. That is what you want. Judging from the selection of Legbar photos that my search engine pulled up when looking for examples, combs are something that about every Legbar flock in the country has been overlooking and that could be improved. When building a breeding line, combs traditional are one of the last things that you fix in the line. Combs usually get a free pass until the 3rd-5th year of breeding. After that, they need to be cleaned and to work toward the correct combs. So with this being a relatively new breed with very few people with breeding lines more than 5 years old, it is not a big surprise that there are these types of flaws that are not seen as much in well-established breeds.

 

[GaryDean26]

@GaryDean26

I'm currently attempting to measure chicken heads/tell the good heads from the bad ones via scratch craddle's guide on the matter...

Heather is good people. I enjoyed the discussion with her on the Euskal Oiloa Breed the four years I breed Basque Hens. That was back when she only have about 3 articles on the Scratch Cradle site. Everytime I am come across her site I am impression but how much she has added and it all is good information. I haven't read the head measuring articles on her site but assume that it follows the method developed at the Kansas Agricultural Extention Office on culling by head points. If so then yes, this is tricky to learn. I have been trying to follow it for 8 years and still am not sure how those guys figured this stuff or what they were looking for half the time. I do know that when I get a head that is close to what they described as a good head that the APA judges are impressed with the head on the bird though.

As far as backs go. I measure the back in finger widths. My Hatchery Brown Leghotds would measure 7-1/2 to 8-1/2 finger-widths for the length of their back and my Legbars would be 6-7 finger widths. Here is the sport cream Bown Leghorn Cockerel that I raised in 2013. The distance from the junction of his neck and back to the junction of his back and tail is twice the width from the junction for the neck and back to the front of his breast if drawing on the photo with a horizontal line. That is a nice long back and what I would like to work towards in the Legbars. My rule of thumb for legbars, however, is that they should have a bacl length that is a minimum of one width from the distance by a horizontal line from the breast to the junction of their back/neck.

He is one of 2015 cockerels. His back is not as long as the Brown Leghorn, but it is pretty good for the range we see in the Ledgars. He is one that we retained for breeding.

The angle on this one (not mine) and the high tail make the back on this one look shorter than it may really be, but if you do the horizontal line test from the ap of the neck to the breast you can see that the back on this one is less than the horizontal line test. This would be a short back. Short back often lends themself to broad breasted meat birds. They sort back however cramps the internal organs camping up the production of eggs. Some of the broad brested beat breeds may only lay 30-100 eggs a year. The long back on the Brown leghorn could get you 250-300 eggs a year. So different forms for different functions.

 

[Eelantha]

@GaryDean26 - I snuck up on my Legbar roo with a (gloved) hand and I think he was roughly 6 fingers wide at the back. Without my glove it might be larger, though he's skittish so getting a good read on him will take a few attempts xD Is there a specific way to place one's fingers on the bird's back to get an accurate reading of its length?

So a back is called long if it measures between 8½ - 7½ fingers wide? What about middle and short backs?

My rule of thumb for legbars, however, is that they should have a bacl length that is a minimum of one width from the distance by a horizontal line from the breast to the junction of their back/neck.

Do you mean that if your Legbar has 5 finger's width breast-neck wise, you want the back of your bird to have a minimum of 6 fingers's width neck-to-tail wise?

Long back = proficient layers, short backs = poor layers + cramped organs... I will definitely favor long backs in my chickens from now on o.o

Wait, if short backs are called such because the horizontal neck-tail distance is shorter than the horizontal neck-breast distance, does that mean middle backs are equal in length to the bird's neck-breast distance? Like:

Short back = breast-to-neck joint length is longer than neck joint-to-tail joint length (aka great meat bird/poor layer)
Middle back = breast-to-neck joint length is equal to that of neck joint-to-tail joint length (aka dual purpose bird)
Long back = breast-to-neck joint length is shorter than neck joint-to-tail joint length (aka poor meat bird/proficient layer)

Did I get that right??

Below is my crested golden crele rooster, Teacher. Looking at his floppy comb, I think his breeder has worked on it some but is not entirely there yet. The first three spikes starting from his beak look somewhat large, as does the one at the end of his comb, but he has two spikes that look thin... thoughts?

(My camera caught him just as he moved his head...)

As for back length, this is what he looks like.

If I follow your finger measurement, 6 gloved fingers is what he has. If I follow the eye measurement I guessed above, then he has what looks like a middle back. I know my roo is not breeding material, but still - what do you see when you look at him?