- Nov 22, 2011
- 596
- 53
- 131
Because we don't have enough threads discussing the "standard", "colors" and "genotype" I thought I'd add another 
Seriously, I thought it might be easier to have this discussion in one place instead of trying to figure out what statement or picture on the subject was posted on which one of the other threads.
Has anyone come up with the suspected genotype for the Crested Cream Legbar yet? Did Dr. Punnett jot it down in any of his literature? I didn't see anything in the club history.
I also think we need to be a little more consistent on terminology -- not cream does not necessarily equal gold.
Based on the SOP we're working with, I suspect the base for the CCL is wild type duckwing expressed as 'e+' If we take away the barring pattern and any other enhancers, I believe we have a base color of black breast, body, primaries, tails/sickles with orange-red hackle with some black shafting that varies between heavy and light and an orange-red saddle. The hens are "brown" with salmon breasts. Chicks are chipmunk striped.
Next we have to decide if we are working with autosomal red (AR) or sex linked red i.e. s+ gold. That's a bit trickier. I've been studying Sigrid VanDort's book on genetics, but it seems to have a conflict re: autosomal red. In one case she states that AR is part of the e+ wild pattern and that silver does not affect it then she shows the silver duckwing based on e+ without the AR (ar) Anyone able clarify this? Either it is or is not part of the e+ and either S can or cannot affect the AR based salmon breast on the hen. I'm still confused here. The fact that the standard allows for some chestnut on the back leads me to believe there is some AR in this breed which is predominantly suppressed by other modifiers.
Dr. Punnett was working on auto sexing characteristics and using sex-linked barring. It appears from the CCL history that he was also using the gold gene as part of his sex-link studies. It also appears that he was crossing a multitude of varieties in his attempts to fix the autosexing characteristics. So it could be possible that we ended up with a very similar phenotype of Silver Duckwing with salmon breasted females. Males that are S/S and AR/ar can also appear very similar to males that are S/s+
When Dr. Punnett added that lemony/cream Chilean bird to the mix, it was called cream but it could have been the Dilution gene 'Di' a straightforward dominant. It is the red modifier that creates a variety of colors from pale red through buff and lemon. Interestingly enough the dilution gene also mutes the stripes on the chipmunk down color, as our male chicks are muted.
Cream or Inhibitor of gold - ig - is a recessive and needs a double dose, but there has to be a gold base to inhibit, which would eliminate Silver males as the history indicates was done. On the other hand, heterozygous silver males could have had straw/red leakage, especially in the presence of autosomal red -- phenotype S/s Ar+/ar or Ar+/Ar+ This could result in those gold hens.
Then we have Cb or the champagne gene which does the same thing as ig.
Given that the breed was developed early in the 20th century and breeders in the U.K. have been working with it for awhile, what started as a pretty mixed up phenotype could have evolved to a preference for the silver/light phenotype and possibly a silver genotype with the original genotype gold based birds being eliminated.
Just to add to the confusion, the Dutch Cream chicken phenotype is e+/e+ s+/s+ Ar+/Ar+ Di/Di ig/ig Bl/Bl
I would be interested to hear other thoughts and opinions on any of these modifiers and/or genotype possibilities. I would also love to know if the breed's genotype has already been determined. It's hard to work toward something when you're not 100% certain what you are working with.
Seriously, I thought it might be easier to have this discussion in one place instead of trying to figure out what statement or picture on the subject was posted on which one of the other threads.
Has anyone come up with the suspected genotype for the Crested Cream Legbar yet? Did Dr. Punnett jot it down in any of his literature? I didn't see anything in the club history.
I also think we need to be a little more consistent on terminology -- not cream does not necessarily equal gold.
Based on the SOP we're working with, I suspect the base for the CCL is wild type duckwing expressed as 'e+' If we take away the barring pattern and any other enhancers, I believe we have a base color of black breast, body, primaries, tails/sickles with orange-red hackle with some black shafting that varies between heavy and light and an orange-red saddle. The hens are "brown" with salmon breasts. Chicks are chipmunk striped.
Next we have to decide if we are working with autosomal red (AR) or sex linked red i.e. s+ gold. That's a bit trickier. I've been studying Sigrid VanDort's book on genetics, but it seems to have a conflict re: autosomal red. In one case she states that AR is part of the e+ wild pattern and that silver does not affect it then she shows the silver duckwing based on e+ without the AR (ar) Anyone able clarify this? Either it is or is not part of the e+ and either S can or cannot affect the AR based salmon breast on the hen. I'm still confused here. The fact that the standard allows for some chestnut on the back leads me to believe there is some AR in this breed which is predominantly suppressed by other modifiers.
Dr. Punnett was working on auto sexing characteristics and using sex-linked barring. It appears from the CCL history that he was also using the gold gene as part of his sex-link studies. It also appears that he was crossing a multitude of varieties in his attempts to fix the autosexing characteristics. So it could be possible that we ended up with a very similar phenotype of Silver Duckwing with salmon breasted females. Males that are S/S and AR/ar can also appear very similar to males that are S/s+
When Dr. Punnett added that lemony/cream Chilean bird to the mix, it was called cream but it could have been the Dilution gene 'Di' a straightforward dominant. It is the red modifier that creates a variety of colors from pale red through buff and lemon. Interestingly enough the dilution gene also mutes the stripes on the chipmunk down color, as our male chicks are muted.
Cream or Inhibitor of gold - ig - is a recessive and needs a double dose, but there has to be a gold base to inhibit, which would eliminate Silver males as the history indicates was done. On the other hand, heterozygous silver males could have had straw/red leakage, especially in the presence of autosomal red -- phenotype S/s Ar+/ar or Ar+/Ar+ This could result in those gold hens.
Then we have Cb or the champagne gene which does the same thing as ig.
Given that the breed was developed early in the 20th century and breeders in the U.K. have been working with it for awhile, what started as a pretty mixed up phenotype could have evolved to a preference for the silver/light phenotype and possibly a silver genotype with the original genotype gold based birds being eliminated.
Just to add to the confusion, the Dutch Cream chicken phenotype is e+/e+ s+/s+ Ar+/Ar+ Di/Di ig/ig Bl/Bl
I would be interested to hear other thoughts and opinions on any of these modifiers and/or genotype possibilities. I would also love to know if the breed's genotype has already been determined. It's hard to work toward something when you're not 100% certain what you are working with.
